CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Do you have 3rd part insurance? I may get some now.

(21 posts)

  1. DaveC
    Member

    Cycling home last night with a colleague we rude along Cramond Prom and up towards Cramond Brig along Whitehouse Rd. As we travelled down towards the NCN1 path we passed a stationary line or traffic, as we were intending to turn right down to Cramond Brig. At the turning to Barnton Ave West a car emerged through the stationary traffic, just as my colleague was approaching. The car came out, my colleague braked but collided with the moving car, came off ofer his handlebars and his bike caught the stationary car in the line of traffic. He is fine thankfully, with only a scratch and slight pain in his right ankle. The two drivers parked up and had a chat together while we tried to sort his bike out. They then came over and asked what we planned to do about insurance as the stationary driver was an innocent party (his words) as he said he had not signalled the emerging car to pull out, and had a scratch on his bumper of his new car. My colleague has CTC membership and the three exchanged insurance details. The driver of the stationary car had called the police but apparently they said as no one was injured they would not be attending.

    So, do you have insurance? I have to admit I don’t. This appears to be a difficult case to decide blame on as the cyclist was in the outside, not undercutting the traffic, the stationary driver claims he didn’t see the cyclist, and did not signal for the emerging car to pass his front, and the emerging car, did what I expect all of us driver do* move through the gap, look left to see if it is clear and then turn right.

    Looks like the insurance will argue and decide amongst themselves, and I’m happy I’m only a witness, but trying to be impartial, I can’t see how its any one person’s fault, but rather shared between the two main injured parties, and perhaps not the stationary vehicle’s owner.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. algo
    Member

    yeah - I reckon this is a good idea - especially given how far you ride. I've been meaning to get third party insurance for some time. As much as I try to ride well, there are times, particularly in heavy traffic just as you describe, when I make the wrong judgement... or at least that becomes apparent in hindsight.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    At the turning to Barnton Ave West a car emerged through the stationary traffic, just as my colleague was approaching.

    If you see a gap in a line of vehicles, it doesn't matter what side you're filtering on. You must assume that a vehicle will emerge.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Hmm, I suspect that blame for any damage to the bike is on the emerging driver (I would do the same too admittedly, 'oh space, look left, go..). I'm not really sure about any blame on cyclist for stationary car, as although he hit it, it was because of emerging drivers manoeuvre. From cyclists perspective filtering down outside of queue is ok, so not culpable (I think)

    Even if emerging driver says stationary driver signalled him, it is up to emerging driver to ensure it is safe to progress (again i could easily get caught like that). Only thing that is sure is that stationary driver not at fault.

    I should probably get insurance too, having now been involved in 3 collisions, one of which I was equally to blame as other the cyclist (meeting at speed on blind corner).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. earthowned
    Member

    I have 3rd party liability insurance through membership with British Cycling. Gives peace of mind in case something does goes wrong.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Am I getting this right?

    Someone pulled across your colleagues line of travel (from minor onto the major road) resulting in him coming off his bike, and another driver thinks it is your colleague's fault that his bike hit his car as a result?

    From how you've written it, the car that your colleague collided with couldn't see if it was clear to exit but pulled out anyway in the hope of getting a better view, in doing so putting itself in his path?

    HWC rule 170;
    Take extra care at junctions. You should

    - watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, powered wheelchairs/mobility scooters and pedestrians as they are not always easy to see. Be aware that they may not have seen or heard you if you are approaching from behind...

    - look all around before emerging. Do not cross or join a road until there is a gap large enough for you to do so safely.

    In my interpretation the driver should never have pulled out "for a better view", precisely because he could not see if his position for getting a "better view" was safe. He couldn't. His fault. He was operating under the spurious assumption that if he couldn't see it, it wasn't there.

    Furthermore, from where you describe it happening, that driver pulled out from a Give Way sign.

    HWC Rule 172
    The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
    Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10(1),16(1) & 25

    And as Baldcyclist says, a signal from another driver is never an indication it is clear or safe to move and the responsibility still rests 100% with the maneouvring vehicle.

    With regards to insurance, yes, 3rd party always a good idea. It doesn't cost much and could really cover you financially in the very unlikely event that the worst happens.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. Greenroofer
    Member

    My home insurance has this...

    "We will pay all amounts you become legally liable to pay as damages in your capacity as occupier of your home, or for any other reason, as a result of:
    a) accidental death of or bodily injury to any person;
    b) accidental loss of or damage to property, which happened during the period of insurance shown in your schedule.

    But not
    Liability for:
    <stuff deleted>
    i) vehicles except the following while being used for their intended purpose and by a person for whom they were designed: ride-on lawn mowers, electrically powered wheelchairs (designed primarily for indoor use), electrically powered children’s ride on
    toys, electrically assisted bicycles and pedestrian controlled electrically powered golf trolleys;"

    It excludes "vehicles", but then in the definitions vehicles is something with a motor. So I read this to say that I have third-party liability cover through my home insurance.

    Maybe worth a read of your home insurance policy before splashing out on specific cover.

    Of course if you want to join CTC or British Cycling anyway, then you get it through them for free.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. steveo
    Member

    another driver thinks it is your colleague's fault that his bike hit his car as a result?

    I can see where you're coming from Kaputnik, I suppose its being able to had over your details and ride off and let the insurance companies argue against getting drawn into an argument at the road side and then another insurance company trying to pursue you for costs.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. amir
    Member

    With the CTC (and BC?) you can get legal advice also

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    Just join the CTC, it's not expensive and you get a magazine too.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    BC looks to be £9 cheaper and has less history of support for the NWC...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. crowriver
    Member

    Yeah, but there are different 'grades' of membership of BC. Do they all offer the same insurance/legal advice cover as CTC?

    Are you even covered at all for commuting cycling by BC as opposed to racing, sportives events, etc.? I don't know the answer, maybe someone could enlighten me. I know that AUK only insures while you are riding an audax.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. ARobComp
    Member

    I'm a BC member so have their insurance package (and a whole lot of other things now that I actually look at the website!)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. Roibeard
    Member

    Not sure of the terms of their insurance, but the Tandem Club might be the cheapest yet at just £10 for a family!

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Cyclops
    Member

    BC Ride, Silver and Gold membership give 3rd party cover whenever you're on a bike (Silver and Gold also cover you for racing). I jumped ship from CTC to BC a few years ago as I was only really a member for the insurance cover.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. fimm
    Member

    I have some sort of cover through being a member of triathlonscotland. I think it covers training and racing - which means that I may be in the anomolous position of having cover when I'm riding my road bike but not when I'm on my Brompton...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    Just had a wee skeg at the BC and CTC web sites. The packages seem quite similar, though the BC 'Ride' membership insurance specifically excludes 'competitive cycling' unless you buy more expensive 'Gold' or 'Silver' membership and also excludes business use of your bike and certain 'member on member' claims. CTC insurance specifically includes using your bike for business, unless you are a cycle courier, and also includes some 'competitive cycling', specifically "touring competitions, reliability events, audax events, time-trials and record-breaking attempts".

    CTC legal advice seems better organised, with a named firm of solicitors (with an Edinburgh office) to deal with your incident and presumably make a claim on your behalf if need be. The BC offering IMO seems to be keener on disclaimers and what it will not do for you, no solicitors named.

    BC offer 10% off Halfords, CTC 15% off Cotswold Outdoors. Both 12% off Wiggle. BC offering slightly more discount packages for various other cycling related products/services. CTC sends a magazine every two months in the post, BC sends you a weekly e-mail.

    All in all quite similar, the main differences seem to be the legal advice services, some differences in the insurance cover, and the magazine/e-mail divide.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    @Roibeard, aye, but is insurance included in that membership? It's not clear.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. stiltskin
    Member

    I've got BC Ride insurance, seems good value to me.
    Not looking to start a big argument but I would say I would put it at least 50/50 cyclists fault. Overtaking on the approach to a junction.......?

    There is some very selective quotation from the HC on this thread. How about:
    Rule 167

    DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example:

    approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Roibeard
    Member

    Yep the Tandem Club membership does include 3rd party insurance, although they don't publish the details of the insurance.

    I've had British Cycling "Ride" membership on the back of my SkyRide Leader status, which includes professional indemnity and public liability insurance, both of which appear absent from the CTC equivalent.

    So, take your pick!

    Robert

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    @Roibeard, the Tandem Club membership seems a good bargain.

    That BC deal you have sounds like "Insurance for Coaches, Leaders and Cycle Training Instructors" which (apparently) is only available to "Race Gold, Race Silver and Ride members who hold a valid British Cycling Coaching qualification and/or a British Cycling approved leadership or instruction qualification(b) together with a valid First Aid certificate".

    OTOH if your local cycling club is affiliated to CTC (£60 per annum for the club):
    "By affiliating your group to CTC, you will obtain our comprehensive Organisers' Liability insurance cover of up to £10 million to protect your event organisers and volunteer ride leaders against any claims made against them. In addition, affiliating to CTC provides:

    The opportunity for members of your group to become individual affiliated CTC members for only £16 per year, which will provide them with Third Party cover;"

    Which I presume means that members of AUK or the Time Trials association (or an affiliated local CC) could potentially apply for CTC affiliate membership for £16 p.a. No legal advice cover unless you're a full member though.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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