CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

How to disagree

(34 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by Simon Parker
  • Latest reply from gembo

  1. Simon Parker
    Member

    The web is turning writing into a conversation. Twenty years ago, writers wrote and readers read. The web lets readers respond, and increasingly they do—in comment threads, on forums, and in their own blog posts.

    Many who respond to something disagree with it. That's to be expected. Agreeing tends to motivate people less than disagreeing. And when you agree there's less to say. You could expand on something the author said, but he has probably already explored the most interesting implications. When you disagree you're entering territory he may not have explored.

    The result is there's a lot more disagreeing going on, especially measured by the word. That doesn't mean people are getting angrier. The structural change in the way we communicate is enough to account for it. But though it's not anger that's driving the increase in disagreement, there's a danger that the increase in disagreement will make people angrier. Particularly online, where it's easy to say things you'd never say face-to-face.

    If we're all going to be disagreeing more, we should be careful to do it well. What does it mean to disagree well? Most readers can tell the difference between mere name calling and a carefully-reasoned refutation, but I think it would help to put names on the intermediate stages. So here's an attempt at a disagreement hierarchy:

    DH0. Name-calling

    This is the lowest form of disagreement, and probably also the most common. We've all seen comments like this:

    u r a chatbot

    But it's important to realise that more articulate name-calling has just as little weight.

    A comment like

    The author is a self-important dilettante

    is really nothing more than a pretentious version of "u r a chatbot."

    DH1. Ad Hominem

    An ad hominem attack is not quite as weak as mere name-calling. It might actually carry some weight. For example, if a politician wrote an article saying politicians' salaries should be increased, one could respond:

    Of course he would say that. He's a politician.

    This wouldn't refute the author's argument, but it may at least be relevant to the case. It's still a very weak form of disagreement, though. If there's something wrong with the politician's argument, you should say what it is; and if there isn't, what difference does it make that he's a politician?

    Saying that an author lacks the authority to write about a topic is a variant of ad hominem—and a particularly useless sort, because good ideas often come from outsiders. The question is whether the author is correct or not. If his lack of authority caused him to make mistakes, point those out. And if it didn't, it's not a problem.

    DH2. Responding to Tone

    The next level up we start to see responses to the writing, rather than the writer. The lowest form of these is to disagree with the author's tone. For example,

    I've no hesitation in saying that I don't think the influencing style deployed has much chance of success

    Though better than attacking the author, this is still a weak form of disagreement. It matters much more whether the author is wrong or right than what his tone is. Especially since tone is so hard to judge. Someone who has a chip on their shoulder about some topic might be offended by a tone that to other readers seemed neutral.

    So if the worst thing you can say about something is to criticise its tone, you're not saying much. Is the author flippant, but correct? Better that than grave and wrong. And if the author is incorrect somewhere, say where.

    DH3. Contradiction

    In this stage we finally get responses to what was said, rather than how or by whom. The lowest form of response to an argument is simply to state the opposing case, with little or no supporting evidence.

    This is often combined with DH2 statements, as in:

    I've no hesitation in saying that I don't think the influencing style deployed has much chance of success, and I do think there's a danger of energy that could go into the grind of local politics being spent on an online map

    Contradiction can sometimes have some weight. Sometimes merely seeing the opposing case stated explicitly is enough to see that it's right. But usually evidence will help.

    DH4. Counterargument

    At level 4 we reach the first form of convincing disagreement: counterargument. Forms up to this point can usually be ignored as proving nothing. Counterargument might prove something. The problem is, it's hard to say exactly what.

    Counterargument is contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence. When aimed squarely at the original argument, it can be convincing. But unfortunately it's common for counterarguments to be aimed at something slightly different. More often than not, two people arguing passionately about something are actually arguing about two different things. Sometimes they even agree with one another, but are so caught up in their squabble they don't realise it.

    There could be a legitimate reason for arguing against something slightly different from what the original author said: when you feel they missed the heart of the matter. But when you do that, you should say explicitly you're doing it.

    DH5. Refutation

    The most convincing form of disagreement is refutation. It's also the rarest, because it's the most work. Indeed, the disagreement hierarchy forms a kind of pyramid, in the sense that the higher you go the fewer instances you find.

    To refute someone you probably have to quote them. You have to find a "smoking gun," a passage in whatever you disagree with that you feel is mistaken, and then explain why it's mistaken. If you can't find an actual quote to disagree with, you may be arguing with a straw man.

    While refutation generally entails quoting, quoting doesn't necessarily imply refutation. Some writers quote parts of things they disagree with to give the appearance of legitimate refutation, then follow with a response as low as DH3 or even DH0.

    DH6. Refuting the Central Point

    The force of a refutation depends on what you refute. The most powerful form of disagreement is to refute someone's central point.

    Even as high as DH5 we still sometimes see deliberate dishonesty, as when someone picks out minor points of an argument and refutes those. Sometimes the spirit in which this is done makes it more of a sophisticated form of ad hominem than actual refutation. For example, correcting someone's grammar, or harping on minor mistakes in names or numbers. Unless the opposing argument actually depends on such things, the only purpose of correcting them is to discredit one's opponent.

    Truly refuting something requires one to refute its central point, or at least one of them. And that means one has to commit explicitly to what the central point is. So a truly effective refutation would look like:

    The author's main point seems to be x. As he says:

    <quotation>

    But this is wrong for the following reasons...

    The quotation you point out as mistaken need not be the actual statement of the author's main point. It's enough to refute something it depends upon.

    What It Means

    Now we have a way of classifying forms of disagreement. What good is it? One thing the disagreement hierarchy doesn't give us is a way of picking a winner. DH levels merely describe the form of a statement, not whether it's correct. A DH6 response could still be completely mistaken.

    But while DH levels don't set a lower bound on the convincingness of a reply, they do set an upper bound. A DH6 response might be unconvincing, but a DH2 or lower response is always unconvincing.

    The most obvious advantage of classifying the forms of disagreement is that it will help people to evaluate what they read. In particular, it will help them to see through intellectually dishonest arguments. An eloquent speaker or writer can give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words. In fact that is probably the defining quality of a demagogue. By giving names to the different forms of disagreement, we give critical readers a pin for popping such balloons.

    Such labels may help writers too. Most intellectual dishonesty is unintentional. Someone arguing against the tone of something he disagrees with may believe he's really saying something. Zooming out and seeing his current position on the disagreement hierarchy may inspire him to try moving up to counterargument or refutation.

    But the greatest benefit of disagreeing well is not just that it will make conversations better, but that it will make the people who have them happier. If you study conversations, you find there is a lot more meanness down in DH1 than up in DH6. You don't have to be mean when you have a real point to make. In fact, you don't want to. If you have something real to say, being mean just gets in the way.

    If moving up the disagreement hierarchy makes people less mean, that will make most of them happier. Most people don't really enjoy being mean; they do it because they can't help it.

    (From Paul Graham, How to disagree)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    Simon

    Not sure if you've studied CCE enough to understand that discussions are about Cycling, Edinburgh or completely random flights of 'off-topic' that suit the CCE sensibility (which is indefinable).

    There is also very light moderation and threads have been closed on very few occasions.

    Copying large chunks of someone else's thoughts doesn't really seem to fit.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. allebong
    Member

    I sense this may be related to the less than perfect reception the 'cycle network' thread got.

    While I'm here, also tl;dr and in before the (possible) lock.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    @ ab

    Thanks - had to look it up!!

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl;dr

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. gembo
    Member

    Always good to be able to calibrate the level of disagreement. Needs another parameter related to vehemence. Thus your disagreement could be at the top of the tree and refute the central point but the disagreement may be mild. Alternatively the disagreement could be at level of name calling and be very brutal. The latter would not be tolerated under our two rules.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. Dougie
    Member

    Pleased to have learned the expression tl;dr I will be using that one I think

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. Arellcat
    Moderator

    the CCE sensibility (which is indefinable).

    It's a sort of educated unhingedness borne of familiarity and politeness.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    Who u calling unhinged?!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Is that refutation?

    (I did say 'sort of') :-/

    Edit: Maybe just me. I have deviant bikes to ride.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. wingpig
    Member

    "An eloquent speaker or writer can give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words."

    Or forceful quotes, in some cases. Eric noted that technique when you argued with him and David Hembrow.

    I tend not to bother with other cycling forums due to their relative rudeness, but one method of argument-pretend-winning I have seen on here is the pretend-someone-said-something-they-never-said-then-rubbish-it, which is not covered in the excerpt above.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. wee folding bike
    Member

    wing,

    Straw man?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. crowriver
    Member

    People disagreeing online is nothing new. It's as old as USENET and e-mail lists, which go back to the 1980s (and BBS systems, which go back further but were not stricyly 'the internet').

    Disagreeing in a disagreeable manner used to be called flaming. Flame wars start when people angrily disagree with each other.

    Trolling is when someone posts something deliberately provocative looking to incite a response or start a flame war.

    Spamming was and is posting unsolicited advertising, announcements or publicity to the group or list (Can also mean forwarding lengthy posts from elsewhere in their entirity or in part to the group/list rather than original content/personal comments).

    There used to be a thing called Netiquette back in the day which tried to set out 'rules' of being nice to each other online. Often ignored. Nowadays the soshul meedja generation are repeating many of the same mistakes made by earlier 'netizens' on USENET groups or e-mail lists.

    Big deal, get over it, nothing to see here.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. wee folding bike
    Member

    And while we're at it:

    Mr Barnard (shouting) What do you want?
    Man Well I was told outside ...
    Mr Barnard Don't give me that you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
    Man What!
    Mr Barnard Shut your festering gob! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!
    Man Look! I came here for an argument.

    If you need the rest of it: http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode29.htm#11

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. wingpig
    Member

    @wfb
    Yes for the apparently-successful-arguing-against-phantom-point side of things but it doesn't feel strong enough for the vaguely malicious misrepresentation aspect when the aim seems to be to generally discredit the opponent's reasoning ability, thought processes or logic, which is always more concerning than merely trying to kick a fair point under the carpet.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. crowriver
    Member

    Some will know this already but worth repeating here. Schopenhauer's 38 stratagems for winning arguments in The Art Of Being Right (1831).

    Covers them all.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. gembo
    Member

    See also Alexander Petrie,the only certified sane man in Glasgow who claimed to have a special silver cell in his brain which allowed him to Clinch every argument

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. Instography
    Member

    Your source talks about disagreement as though that were the point when actually, the point is either to convince the opponent, convince someone else (the lurker), silence the opponent (just wear them down) or be convinced (argue until your opponent comes up with a convincing counter-argument or gives up).

    Of course, if you don't know the mind of the two sides you have to resort to classifying on the basis of the surface appearance of the disagreement without understanding why they're disagreeing or what they hope to achieve by it.

    That was an example of another missing type of disagreement - moving the goalposts - not refuting the central point but arguing that something else is the central point. You'd do better with Schopenhauer.

    * Laters. Damn that Crowriver - and a me for getting lost rereading it.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. allebong
    Member

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugins

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. Morningsider
    Member

    Simon - I must apologise that CCE, and myself in particular, have been unable to provide the level of criticism that you have clearly become accustomed to in the literary/cycling salons of London.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Focus
    Member

    That is the most incredibly long-winded way to go into a huff that I have ever seen :-o

    I did read the first few posts of the Network thread but couldn't see past an awful lot of words seemingly claiming everything would just happen if it were written down as such. What seemed like a positive idea ended up resembling a political party's manifesto which you always know will only partially come to fruition as described. So glad I never posted in that thread.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. Simon Parker
    Member

    ... couldn't see past an awful lot of words seemingly claiming everything would just happen if it were written down as such ...

    Nobody claimed "everything would just happen", Focus.

    Thanks for taking the time to engage in the debate.

    A culture of inertia has set in. Criticism predominates over construction; critics are given more weight than those trying to build. It doesn't matter how small a constituency or flawed an argument the critic possesses. He or she always seems to predominate in political circles, in the news media, and in the public debate. - Senator Charles E. Schumer

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Morningsider
    Member

    Simon - really, a quote from that old publicity hound Chuck Schumer! You do realise this quote is from a speech that was a thinly veiled attack on the Bloomberg administration, New York conservation bodies and environmentalists. The very people responsible for the Green Light for Midtown project (Times Square, New York) that you are so fond of praising.

    You can see it here:

    http://www.schumer.senate.gov/Newsroom/record.cfm?id=260837

    Unusually for a US Senator, Chuck is a cyclist - but seems to be opposed to the development of (you guessed it) a cycle network:

    http://nypost.com/2011/02/06/not-in-chucks-back-yard/

    I find your use of all these quotes quite odd. The vast majority were originally made with no thought of cycling. Are you hoping that the eminent names attached to them lend weight to an argument? I say - have the courage of your convictions, stick to your own words.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    My word. What a gem. I do love the idea that the CCE community requires lessons on how to disagree, given that it's always struck me as being utterly erudite, unfailingly polite(ish) and hopelessly contrarian.

    May I chip in here by reminding you that the concept of refutation (necessary to point six of your disagreement hierarchy) was put in serious doubt (though not, for reasons that become clear after a moment's thought, refuted) by Quine's restatement of Duhesme's hypothesis. In formal logic, we have a hypothesis H that requires an observation O;

    H -> O

    the contrary observation ~O is made and we can conclude the hypothesis to be false;

    H -> O
    ~O
    -------
    ~H

    For example, the proposition 'all swans are white' is refuted by the observation of a black swan. Problem is in the real world we can only test the complex of all hypotheses held, primary and auxilliary. Let A be the complex of auxilliary hypotheses supporting H;

    A.H -> O
    ~O
    --------
    ~H or ~A or (~H and ~O)

    So for example if H is again the hypothesis that all swans are white, A might have a component hypothesis that all aquatic birds larger than geese are swans. Now if we see a 'black swan' we can conclude that either not all swans are white or that what we are seeing isn't a swan, both with equal validity. We are forced to fall back on rhetoric, because refutation of a single hypothesis is logically impossible through observation: "Of course it's a swan, you dolt!" or "Crikey, what a huge black duck!".

    Rhetoric, if you need reminded, is the art of persuasion, separate from logic. It is generally regarded as vital in all human discourse, and, requiring as it does a degree of insight and empathy, it is the hardest part to program into a chatbot.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    "hopelessly contrarian"

    I have to disagree.

    You mean hopefully contrarian.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I meant to write 'hapless librarians', but ABEND
    U0002.HourGlass could not load the AGGFRONT module. Look for other error messages that may indicate why the load failed.
    SQL State 8001
    Rollback

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    Excuses.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. gembo
    Member

    Willard Quine! now there is someone I would call a formal semanticist.

    also

    do you think of my methods are unsound Willard?

    I don't see any method at all

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    First name terms, eh? We don't want this thread to descend into informal semantics.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. algo
    Member

    I regret I know very little of Quine - but thanks for the brief intro. Can I interject the following excellent Edinburgh based project, borne out of work by a logician and a cognitive scientist -

    http://www.kenyersel.org

    the sessions I saw of these were really quite illuminating

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    Ah, no I am not on first name terms with Willard Quine. I had to use his first name to get my apocalypse now quote in.

    Willard can orman Quine is also very deceased.

    Liked look of kenyersel

    Posted 11 years ago #

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