CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Questions/Support/Help

Cycling with a confident child

(52 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from paddyirish
  • This topic is resolved

  1. crowriver
    Member

    Over the past year my son (now 9 years old) increasingly prefers to ride his own bike rather than stoke a tandem. We still use the tandem for longer journeys, when we need to be fast, or for those routes which involve very busy roads/tram tracks.

    Anyway until recently my son has ridden on a mix of the pavement (with me on the road) and off road paths, and preferred it this way. However, as his confidence has grown he is increasingly frustrated with having to stop or slow down for pedestrians. Not that he's what 'we' would call a fast rider, but his momentum is compromised and it takes him a while to get it back. Of course this is an inherent flaw in the 'shared use' system, but I'm surprised to see it a problem for such a young rider.

    Over the past few months, he would hop onto the road on quiter streets, cul-de-sacs and the like. However since he turned nine he's increasingly demanding to ride on the road, however busy it may be. This has led to us riding two abreast, with me as the outrider 'shepherding' him. Fine on a nice wide road, especially if there's a bus lane, more problematic if the road is narrow or there are pinch points. Most drivers have been good, but a few close passes or irate blasts of the horn have got me wondering if I ought to encourage this. Certainly at some junctions I send him onto the pavement if it looks hazardous.

    On the one hand I'm pleased that his confidence is growing and that he wants to develop his roadcraft. On the other I'm getting concerned about safety. Shared use paths and pavements may be slower or less direct, but they are much safer for him to ride on (and for me too). I'm wondering what the next stage is: do I continue to encourage road cycling? Or retreat somewhat to the shared use/pavement combo? Or steer a pragmatic course between the two depending upon route?

    Anyone else had this experience?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. DaveC
    Member

    On narrow more busy roads my 7 year old rides on the pavement, but if needed I ride behind with him in front so I can keep an eye on him.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. fimm
    Member

    <Cynic mode>
    Keep him cycling on the road, he'll have to get used to "close passes [and] irate blasts of the horn" anyway - or else he'll stop cycling.
    </Cynic mode>

    Trying to be more helpful...
    I've no personal experience to offer, but wasn't there a thread a while back about someone trying to shepherd their child (daughter?) to school, and getting toots etc? I can't remember the outcome, but it might have something useful to offer...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. crowriver
    Member

    @fimm, the thing is he's used to riding in traffic now due to nearly two years of tandem stoking. Of course that is not the same as piloting your own bike, having to watch out for hazards, judging situations, etc. When we ride two abreast I have to keep an eye on him, call out to not ride too close to parked or stationary vehicles; pull over to the left; stop at certain junctions; etc. Not too bad when the road is quiet but when busy it can be a bit stressful as I'm also shoulder checking for overtakers/tailgaters/queus of traffic building; watching the road ahead, and so on.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. Darkerside
    Member

    Almost an aside - a handlebar mirror might help? Gives a quicker, more complete view of what's behind, potentially meaning you can spend more time looking forward/left.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    My 7 yo rides with us on the road. Her in front. Me behind. Pretty constant steam from me : move right a bit. Watch that car. Get ready to brake. Shift down. Brake. Get ready to go,. Go now!

    Etc. works okay.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. fimm
    Member

    Here's the thread I was thinking of:
    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8622
    I'm not sure how much help it is, though.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Roibeard
    Member

    I'm the outlier given that I cycle with independently cycling kids, on the road [1], and have done so with children as young as five. Indeed my boys (6 & 9 at the time) had better handling skills (NB not roadcraft!) than their older cousin (11), such that I placed her on the inside and one of them on the outside.

    I'm also the one referenced by fimm who has had a conversation with Lothian and Borders finest about cycling two abreast...

    We double up on pretty much all Edinburgh roads, and only go for single file where there is room for motorised traffic to pass safely in the lane (or for two wheelers to pass in the lane).

    Increasingly I'm doubling up where I would have previously been in single file - places where it is safe for considerate passing in the lane. I've found that allowing for considerate drivers, means scary/dangerous passes from inconsiderate drivers, so now I don't permit considerate in-lane passing.

    Oddly enough, city drivers seem very loath to cross to the oncoming lane to overtake.

    In any case, yes, the kids are getting used to traffic and abuse from drivers, and occasionally learning that father's vocabulary is wider and coarser than they expect...

    We'll double up even when there's just two of us (to discourage in-lane passing), but it is more obvious to drivers that this is actually considerate cycling when there is at least 4 bicycles, due to the more obvious shorter overtaking time and side road clearing time compared to snaking along the road.

    If there's a single adult, they'll be in the offside rear slot (even if the nearside slot is empty as with an odd number of bikes) - that way you can see and control the children best. If there are two adults, the second adult will be at the front offside slot.

    This protocol was learnt through experience, but is also that used by British Cycling for ride leading. The Ride Leader training I had added a few extra tips for handling junctions, etc.

    Basically the group is controlled from the rear, with signalling and instructions being shouted from there. The front adult (if present) sets the pace and reduces the need for navigational instruction.

    Depending on the front adult, the rear adult will come forward to control the start of maneouvres at junctions, then join back on to the rear.

    I'm happy to go on a joint family ride to demonstrate - that way you can work out if any of it might work for you.

    What doesn't work, though, is attempting to cycle with the children behind you - I often see adults leading their children single file, and it is painful. You can't keep an eye on the kids and the traffic simultaneously in this arrangement, and the parents tend to wobble or leave the kids falling behind. Much better to be the sheep dog at the rear, as with careful selection of gears, one can always sprint forward...

    Darkerside's mirror suggestion is also good, but not for observing the children, for observing approaching traffic - that said, only one of the fleet is currently equipped with a mirror! My wife (front offside usually) would like one though.

    Robert

    [1] Studies have shown that even keen cyclists won't cycle with children...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. Roibeard
    Member

    I should add that on-road cycling with children obviously increases their risk exposure in travelling - the youngest has been "doored".

    However I believe that inculcating the habit of active travel will increase their overall quality of life and decrease inactivity related risks.

    I can't say that calculation is easy!

    Oh, and Crowriver will know this already, but for the benefit of other readers, be prepared for unsolicited advice and judgement from other adults that you are "unnecessarily endangering your children".

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. 559
    Member

    @Roibeard
    If thye can handle on the road cycling and all that entails, then cycle paths are straight forward.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    Pretty constant steam from me : move right a bit. Watch that car. Get ready to brake. Shift down. Brake. Get ready to go,. Go now!

    Sounds like me! ;-)

    Gear changes can be the tricky bit, anticipating slight inclines or flats where he can speed up a bit.

    If there's a single adult, they'll be in the offside rear slot (even if the nearside slot is empty as with an odd number of bikes) - that way you can see and control the children best.

    Aye, that sounds more feasible than the parallel riding we're doing currently, where there's a constant risk of him falling behind.

    Almost an aside - a handlebar mirror might help? Gives a quicker, more complete view of what's behind, potentially meaning you can spend more time looking forward/left.

    Used to use Topeak Bar'n'mirrors on straight/riser bars with a child seat. Now mostly use a drop bar bike for riding with him. I think I have one mirror kicking about that is suitable, might give it a try.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Nelly
    Member

    Crowriver, think your experience and SRD is the same as mine with 8 YO.

    I take him on relatively quiet roads, and around the many paths near me - but always with me coaching from behind.

    Still dont think he has teh road sense he needs - needs more hours.

    Although we stay about 2 mins cycle from his school (sciennes) there is no way I would let him cycle alone - although he will probably be walking alone in P5.

    Which tells you all you need to know about the child friendliness of our roads !

    And I live in a 20mph area.......

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. DaveC
    Member

    "Pretty constant steam from me : move right a bit. Watch that car. Get ready to brake. Shift down. Brake. Get ready to go,. Go now! "

    Makes mental note not to cycle with SRD... :O) (Joke)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I'm full of admiration for those that take their kids out on the roads. That's the next generation of cyclists and the next generation of independent young adults right there.

    @Roibeard - just twigged who you are I think. Solar panels on the roof, sunflower growing by the front door?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Best advice I can give from my experience is when approaching junctions to turn right remind them to stay in the middle of the lane. That prevents left-hooks and also avoids the problem of drivers who cut the corner turning into the road from the left. I was often surprised at how easily they forgot to keep left, even though they had completed their Cycling Proficiency. I found it very stressful and I think that transmitted itself to the girls.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Roibeard
    Member

    @Nelly - Sciennes do a monthly cycle to school, where you and 8YO can join a critical mass of kids heading up the QBiC. First one for this year is on Friday morning!

    @IwratS - sorry, not me! But that suggests there's another family operating a similar approach, so we're not quite so strange...

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. neddie
    Member

    Roibeard is Allah. We are not worthy.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. Roibeard
    Member

    @edd1e_h - I'm definitely not divine, and would not seek to attract worship.

    I'm not quite sure what I've said to give the impression that I think I'm God's gift to cycling, but for that I sincerely apologise. (TL;DR perhaps?)

    There are many here with much more experience cycling than myself, yet I'm happy to share my particular experience in case it benefits others, and I'll leave them to glean whatever is useful from it.

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    @Roibeard, it's much appreciated too.

    Thanks everyone for pitching in with tips, advice, anecdotes. I will leave this thread 'unresolved' for a little longer in case anyone else turns up with some opinions on the topic.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Cycling and Children: how good does it have to be?

    When I see children cycling in London (or elsewhere in the UK), they’re almost always on the pavement – except when we have our monthly Play Streets. The Play Streets represent an inversion of the norm: cars are (politely) excluded or – if resident – slowed to walking pace, while people get their space back. It feels like a little carnival: they walk, cycle, run, dance, and draw in the street. Once a month, we put people before motor vehicles.

    "

    http://rachelaldred.org/projects-2/cycling-and-children-how-good-does-it-have-to-be

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Tulyar
    Member

    Anyone remember when there was still a sign in the Highway Code for Play Street - yes we used to have them.

    I think it disappeared when the culture of being expected to park your car on your land in front of - or down the side/at the back of your house, was eroded, by the Police no longer enforcing the obstruction rules on vehicles left on the carriageway (and no one ever parked on the footway!) Sadly one pretty much needs to be a Georgian to recall such days.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. SRD
    Moderator

    maybe also coinciding with 2 car households?

    This was already on a different thread, but possibly relevant here too: http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/why-most-families-wont-cycle-in.html

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. wee folding bike
    Member

    Usually I'm behind them and shouting where to go but on Thursday we were going through Kilpatrick, under the Erskine bridge, heading for the station. I told them to follow me for a right turn into a minor road but somehow they didn't quite get that I meant follow me to the middle of the road and they took up a position well to the left.

    Perhaps I should get them to read cycle craft. Might try again later in the week.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    @tulyar,interesting point about attitude to the kerbside. I grew up in rural Renfrewshire (before the move to Ayr). Our street was one of the better avenues on the council estate (pre thatcher so all houses all still rented from the local authority). Front garden and back garden. It was our house but we did not own it. As the bus service to Paisley was poor many households had one car. No household had two cars that would be ludicrous. The car could be parked outside your house, but there was never a question that this was or wasn't your space. The houses were big enough semidetached houses with big enough gaps between each building to ensure no one ever had any issue with parking. By 8.30am all cars had gone.

    In this instance the road outside the house did not belong to you (neither did the house) but then the number of cars was not excessive.

    so once again the origin of the problem is thatcher. Why is it always thatcher? She planted the seed of ownership, the seed of this is my small bit of land that no one else can use. Her husband was an oil executive (can't quite link this to two car families). She destroyed the mining industry etc. not that it was some kind of utopia before her but the rights of the individual taking precedent over the community became highly focused under Thatcherism.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. SRD
    Moderator

    Much as I dislike thatcher, I don't think it is good analysis to simplify it to one person. Surely she was just the channel of an already existing set of demands/expectations? She didn't create them, did she?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. sallyhinch
    Member

    One thing she did definitely do is deregulate the buses. In many areas that did drive increased car ownership - Sheffield had very heavily subsidised bus services up until then, and very low rates of car ownership. When the council was forced to deregulate that all went out the window. It's only in London that the bus service remained regulated - and only now that councils like Newcastle are attempting to unpick the damage deregulation caused.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "It's only in London that the bus service remained regulated - and only now that councils like Newcastle are attempting to unpick the damage deregulation caused."

    And Lothian/Edinburgh one of few (only?) that retained 'municipal ownership' and resisted/saw off competition!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. SRD
    Moderator

    Yes, bus deregulation stymies so many good tings that Edinburgh could do. But my point is that it is not 'Thatcher'. nice and simple as it is to blame everything on one person, she would not have been able to do those things without all the people who voted for her, the party that enabled her to take control, and the belief that de-regulation would be more 'efficient' etc etc.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. gembo
    Member

    Maybe thatcher and her backers did believe privatisation and deregulation would be more efficient. She was elected almost as a backlash against closed shop type policies and demarcation of trades in heavy industry designed to protect workers but which were ultimately undercut in deregulated markets eg in India, China etc.

    However, the correct analysis (I.e. mine) is that every sell off including the latest with Royal Mail was designed to help those in control of stock exchange, aka Tory cronies and to appear to help the new class of middle income entrepreneurs who bought shares to make a quick buck but to their long term detriment if they want to receive a parcel (obviously sending letters rare now except by manny in modern family). This new class was created under Thatcherism.

    There is a dismantling of trade unionism under Thatcherism and a Weberian status phenomenon about the individual over the community. Thatcher is totemic and well worthy of opprobrium but of course a mouthpiece for vested interests. Only big business and other power elites actually benefit but a clever spin was created that destroying steel, ship building, manufacturing and coal and leaving Britain as a service economy would be of benefit to wider society.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. SRD
    Moderator

    I'm not disagreeing with your analysis. Just that attributing it to 'thatcher' risks obscuring the real forces at work, of which she was just a figurehead - if an influential and powerful one.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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