'Us', 'them' and visual impairment « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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'Us', 'them' and visual impairment

(26 posts)

Started 10 years ago by chdot
Latest reply from chdot

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chdot
Admin

"Us" is 'cyclists' and/or CCEers. "Them" is pedestrians - which can be 'us' too.

"visual impairment" is what 'visually impaired' people have, and why there is the provision of 'tactiles'.

'We' have been 'monitoring' CEC's additions of 'tactiles' in recent months. On numerous occasions the wrong sort have been used - or in the wrong orientation - or both...

Of course the contractors get the blame (and for putting chicanes in the wrong place), so the work has to be done again.

There have been discussions (on here) about the 'sense' of having concrete 'tramlines' in the direction of cycle travel - but government departments and agencies say that's what councils should do.

Recently the 'golf courses route' has been upgraded.

Cyclists and pedestrians are being funnelled through correctly installed (according to the guidelines) barriers ( - no reflective panels yet), but the tactiles are wrong.

Barnton Ave by HankChief, on Flickr

CEC says 'the round topped tactile paving is "to warn pedestrians leaving path they are about to enter a carriageway without a crossing facility".

Pedestrians (visually impaired or not) probably shouldn't be directed towards the end of that cul de sac in the first place, but some of the (currently wrong) tactiles are in front of one of the barriers where pedestrians are unlikely to be - unless they are coming the other way...

This morning this was posted (about the new chicanes/tactile on Leith Links) -

"

So, am I right in thinking that the slabs in chdot's photo of the Links path tell visually impaired people to walk into the chicane?

"

Does any of this make any sense to people, with or without visual impairment??

'We' have had plenty of threads on shared use - and the undesirable way which cyclists and pedestrians are increasingly being expected to use pavements - though usually they are being widened first.

Seems to be time for a serious look at what's going on.

The Council (and the Government) wants to double the number of cycle trips in the next six years.

How many will be on shared use paths with added ironmongery and questionable surfaces?

This is not just about 'us' being 'inconvenienced'.

OR suggesting that people with any form of visual impairment shouldn't be catered for - THESE seem to be making things worse(?)

Posted 10 years ago #
Kim
Member

This is just sheer incompetence, which wastes public money, it is time we started to hold people to account for this sort of thing!

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"This is just sheer incompetence, which wastes public money"

Yes, but the point is -

Is CEC being incompetent or just following incompetent guidelines?

"it is time we started to hold people to account for this sort of thing!"

'We' try!!

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Bollards instead of chicanes.

Posted 10 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Yes. Bollards are just so much better!

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

It's the wasted money that annoys me the most.

I know that there's not a lot of money sloshing around so when we see some being spent on unnecessary things (tactiles in front of barriers, chicanes that don't work (even when installed properly!) etc.) you have to question how we have got to this situation.

Is CEC unable to apply an 'intelligent' override to the guidelines or to lobby for corrections to the guidelines?

Does make me wonder if CEC are surprised by 'our' feedback and whether more can be done at consultation stage to explain why they 'have' to do the thing they 'have' to do?

Maybe they think the easiest thing is just to spend the money and adhere to ALL the guidelines, even if that means they aren't as effective at getting more people active.

We really shouldn't applaud councils spending more money unless it's well spent and delvers results.

Posted 10 years ago #
smsm1
Member

Why, oh why are those barriers needed. The Dutch would never dream of putting anything like that there, as they just cause more conflict and slow both pedestrians and cyclists down. All this design does is discourage cycling and encourage car use instead.

I was along there (first photo in the thread) the night before Pedal on Parliament and really enjoyed the upgrade (before the barriers were put in), though a little further along I'd recommend adding extra red ground lights where the path narrows.

It's about time similar barriers were put up on all main roads and see how motor vehicle drivers then cope.

Posted 10 years ago #
smsm1
Member

Oh and the Dutch would also avoid using bollards too where possible as it's very easy for a cyclist to run into them. They would be a last resort if people were trying to drive along. I don't see any need for any bollards in that location, though maybe a simple cycle and pedestrian route sign: http://m.tsrgd.co.uk/sign.html?id=956 . If people are trying to drive along their they need their license taken away for a month or two.

Posted 10 years ago #
Tulyar
Member

The correct profile for 'tramline' paving with ridges running parallel to the direction of cycling was tested about 20 years ago by TRL for CLT3 at the then DETR (now DfT) and the design, albeit with the fundamentally flawed orientation was of a profile which could safely be struck obliquely by a cycle tyre without the risk of causing a fall.

The paving shown for the access to the Barnton Golf Course path is not the correct profile, and indeed it is a profile which has been reported as one likely to bring-down a cyclist should their tyres strike the half-round profiles obliquely.

To date however all my attempts to get details of the testing and research carried out by TRL on that contract for DETR have drawn a blank - neither TRL or DfT can find anything. The work was carried out when Gordon Harlend headed up the relevant section of TRL and Fred Offen ran CLT3, so if anyone can help to nail the report, or records, do get this back into the public domain.

Posted 10 years ago #
Nelly
Member

In my opinion, its the same reason my office installed a new wheelbender bike rack which nobody uses.

I spoke to the chap from property who installed it, he was surprised nobody uses it - I commented that nobody asked a cyclist if it was a good idea.

Same with these chicanes and tactiles - blind implementation of policy while singing "LA, LA, LA, I can't hear you".

Posted 10 years ago #
gembo
Member

I could be wrong but do the Dutch take a more relaxed attitude to cycling? Or has strava caused them to behave like Some UK cyclists who are in a competition every morning?

The canal towpath is I think the worst example as it were of shared space and the conflict that can arise. This of course includes dogs that are not trained but are off leash or on very long lead. Not sure what the Dutch attitude to dog walking is?

When someone decides to ride at on road speed on the canal towpath this links in to the perception that something needs to be done about cyclists, which leads to chicanes and the tactile paving. (I always slow for tactile parings as I like to cross them with the ridges perpendicular to my direction of travel. Although this is wrong it is very right for me as I have taken a skite several times with them when ridges parallel to direction of travel on Stenhouse path and meadows..)

I know there should be better infrastructure for cyclists. I also know that when using shared infrastructure we should not cycle in a way that can be perceived as dangerous to pedestrians. E.g. Towpath from Eastern end of aqueduct to Lochrin basin.

I once stopped for a woman on the towpath and she declined to step from the middle of the path. It became clear that she felt I should dismount and walk around her. I see her as the antithesis of some cyclists who only focus on their actual ability to stop at speed but discount the effect this has on the bystander/victim on foot who has been buzzed or feels threatened.

Workie told to lay slabs, lays slabs. Stock control person told to have slabs sent to destination has slabs sent to destination. Planning dept decides which slabs should go where? But somehow no one checks the right slabs or the the right way round?

However, regardless of all of this we need to slow down on shared use paths.

We also need better infrastructure on the roads. At the moment some great new red chip bus lanes at Donaldsons (not sure why parking is allowed in them?) also at Stenhouse and older ones still good at chesser. I know people on here don't like them but they seem better than the paint that just wears off and the surfaces are so much better than they were.so for me I am ending on a positve.

Posted 10 years ago #
Min
Member

This sort of rubbish has been going on way, way before the invention of Strava. As has the old double standard applied only to cyclists that we are not allowed decent infrastructure until every last one of us behaves perfectly. The catch being is that there is no pleasing everyone and therefore no matter how we behave it is still wrong.

Plus I am not sure why it means visually impaired people should be directed straight into chicanes.

Posted 10 years ago #
gembo
Member

I didn't even attempt to skate out into the visually impaired bit. I have never seen a visually impaired person on the Stenhouse path or meadows where I have most often encountered the rumble strips. I think yes there might be some VI people on the meadows that I haven't seen but I would be worried if I encountered any VI people put on Stenhouse path as long stretches with no defining features.

I am trying to make a point about the absurdity of planning regs. I think of course tactile parings should be used to indicate junction points for VI people. Just recalling the execrable Libby purves sympathising on her midweek r4 show with a man with wee arms, oh how do you cut your wholemeal loaf, err I don't, oh that is terrible, err no it isn't I just buy sliced bread...

So to continue out onto the Thin ice we now have tactile pavings the wrong way round on shared use paths where people with visual impairment never venture?

Posted 10 years ago #
Tulyar
Member

Love this gem from @HankChief's photos - could be a bit less camera shake though, and getting the platform edge in the photo for context.

ADMIN EDIT see post below.

My reaction is what sort of risk management is that!?

There is a platform edge and a significant drop if you stray from the path line - likely to cause a nasty surprise and probably injury. What is done here for say a visually impaired user to prevent them from walking over the edge?

Perhaps the answer is to collect material from site clearance and excavations and just build a sloping bank up to the edge of the platform?

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

I put up a context shot on the New Signs Thread

Can't work out how to post it in directly whilst on my phone...

Camera shake due to zooming in a poor quality photo that I did in a rush as it was raining and the passengers were getting restless.

Posted 10 years ago #
Tulyar
Member

oops wrong link originally posted - picture was one previous may have been corrected for me... ta @CHdot

Posted 10 years ago #
Cyclingmollie
Member

Perhaps it would be worth getting in touch with the Edinburgh Access Panel:

"Edinburgh Access Panel works with Council partners and local businesses to improve accessibility for physically disabled and sensory impaired people, predominantly in relation to the built environment. We believe that full access should be incorporated into every facet of Scottish life and our aim is that Edinburgh should become a model of what a fully accessible city should look like."

Posted 10 years ago #
steveo
Member

aim is that Edinburgh should become a model of what a fully accessible city should look like.

Sounds eerily familiar...

[Emphasis mine]

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Perhaps it would be worth getting in touch with the Edinburgh Access Panel"

Indeed!

Just doing, thanks!

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"

Another feature of these ramps is that, where there is a light controlled pedestrian crossing, very often the button is situated so that you have to be on the ramp before you can press the button. So there is a complicated manoeuvre of turning onto the ramp, getting into a position where the button can be reached, putting the brakes on, reaching out to the button, then manoeuvring away from the side to get into a better position for making the crossing when the lights change. Who would think that crossing a road could be so complicated?

Just as a final thought on this, tactile paving is now de rigueur at crossings and greatly appreciated by the visually impaired, but for chair users – especially at the end of a crossing when you are wanting to get back up to pavement level – you have the additional rolling resistance of the tactile surface as you are trying to go uphill onto the pavement.

"

http://www.forwardmid.org.uk/accesspanel.html

Posted 10 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

On a related note, and posted here for want of a better place simply because we've accumulated so many threads that contain valuable discussion on tactiles, Tulyar and I were in London last week and we found this:

Tactile delineation

Top quality in the backroads

What should be the 'cycle track and footway' flags near the corner turned out to be guidance flags, but otherwise I thought it was a remarkably good bit of infrastructure, especially because it's tucked away in a corner, next to the huge sand and aggregate factory near the Thames at Angerstein Wharf.

Posted 10 years ago #
sallyhinch
Member

More on tactiles http://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/tricky-tactiles.html

Posted 9 years ago #
ih
Member

I've learnt a huge amount about tactiles and their use through reading this forum, but the only thing I haven't learnt is if they're any help to people with visual impairment. The guidance for installation of tactiles is nearly 20 years old. But what evidence was that guidance based on, and does it need updating? I can see the potential benefit of some types, such as the blisters at road crossings, and the corduroy type used to warn of steps. I'm not convinced that tactiles on paths (shared or segregated) are of any benefit, but I'm not visually impaired, so does anyone know the views of organisations for the visually impaired on (a) tactiles in general, and (b) the way they've been installed in Edinburgh?

Posted 9 years ago #
gembo
Member

Never spotted any VI people on meadows paths, Stenhouse paths or NEPN

Posted 9 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

I've seen a visually impaired person walking along NMW with a sighted person as guide. Sighted person did not seem to know about tactiles, and lack of bicycle signs on the pavement meant they were walking on the cycle side.

Last week I saw a visually impaired person with a cane on the ped side of MMW, while cyclist wove in an out around the Peds.

Clearly these paths need at least the delimiter strip and preferably a proper curb.

Posted 9 years ago #
chdot
Admin

How can you explain to anyone - with perfect sight or none - how these tactiles 'warn' about the chicane??

Posted 9 years ago #

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