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I find the idea of fully featured Dutch-style (English?) bicycle very appealing but I worry that my temperament isn't up to the challenge. A bike is an excuse for me to leave later than I planned and barrel up the road.
If I had a heavier bike with a less sporty riding posture would I become a more sedate cyclist? Would I start leaving the house on time?
If I lived in a flat small town like my parents do then I think it would be the ideal device for getting around. What do you think?
It's complicated.
There's this thread -
National "ride like your gran" day http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5723
One conclusion was that people felt 'unsafe' riding 'too slow'.
However there have been threads where people (including me) have ridden the same 'real' journey - cross town, traffic lights etc., about 20 mins - on 'fast' bikes and 'slow' bikes and noticing hardly any time difference.
I bought the most upright Dutch bike I could find, an Azor Pastoorfiets. I got it from LaidBack of this parish. He steered me towards one with Alfine gears, which are lovely, so there's no trouble getting up the hills.
I'm certainly a sedate cyclist these days. There are a number of reasons why, I think.
Edit: before the Azor I had a Paper Bicycle. That was not quite so upright as the Dutch bike, but still considerably more upright and relaxed than most bikes, and it was lovely to ride. I'd recommend a test ride to anyone, they're really nice bikes.
@chdot: re feeling unsafe. That depends on the route you take, I think. I choose quiet routes which aren't dominated by motor traffic, so that dawdling feels safe. But on busy roads one does feel a need to charge along as fast as possible.
The idea of cycling like my gran is appealing, though I don't know for sure that she ever cycled. I'd need a tool for determining speed though.
The revelation to me of riding a proper dutch bike was the incredible posture it encourages - finally, my mother would have been pleased to see me sitting up straight. Never mind using one for transport, I'd quite like to find a way I can use one as an office chair. It would do wonders for my back and neck. Being upright does make you a bit safer in traffic as you can more easily turn your head to look behind you. I'd like to see how it works going up hills before I committed to one for my daily ride though.
Occasionally if I'm recovering from a bout of illness of otherwise feeling under the weather I become a sedate cyclist and find the whole thing terrifying. At these vulnerable times I'm least likely to be in primary position which makes it all the worse.
"I become a sedate cyclist and find the whole thing terrifying."
I agree (though perhaps scary rather than terrifying) but am not sure how much it's perception rather than real.
Clearly it can give a degree of confidence/reassurance if you can 'keep up with the traffic'. But realistically it either passes you still (slightly faster because you're going slower) or you're under/overtaking anyway.
However illness, heavy bike/load can mean that it's harder to accelerate to 'get you out of trouble'.
"However illness, heavy bike/load can mean that it's harder to accelerate to 'get you out of trouble'."
I've been nursing a twitchy rear mech for a couple of days, which has a similar effect to personal illness or injury in forcing much slower acceleration away from lights.
The Azor Dutch bikes look great. Only problem is the frame sizes for gent's models: smallest is 57cm. You need fairly long legs, not sure my wee legs would cope (optimal frame size 54/55cm).
I suppose there are always Pashley roadster bikes instead, essentially the same thing but maybe not as sturdy as a Dutch bike...
I like a nice slow dawdle but when it comes to riding on the road I feel a bit unstable, particularly when people are passing.
It also makes me feel a bit more guilty when taking up prime to pass parked cars/go through pinch points and people drive up my behind (they still do it if I'm going at 20mph when that's the speed limit but I don't feel bad about it!).
Life from the saddle of an upright Dutch Bicycle
I do wonder how a hilly 11-mile round trip would feel on one, because I'd really love to get one. Maybe when I'm ready for an e-bike...
Speaking personally I found that riding a sedate Dutch bike was great in Amsterdam, ok for certain routes here, but by and large not something I'd want to ride on a regular basis in Edinburgh.
"Maybe when I'm ready for an e-bike... "
I definitely would have been ready for an e-bike today. However the guilt kernel in my head keeps telling me cycling is good for my health and best to get up a sweat etc. I don't know if there is some kind of op to get rid of that part of the brain.
I work next to an e-bike workshop and see people testing various models as they go back and forth past my window. It amuses me to see the "Easy Rider" positions people assume when they engage the motor assistance. I'm sure if the bars rose another 30cm higher at the same time they'd sell a lot more. Instant Harley.
(most of the time) I ride the boris bikes in a manner which would be considered sedate by most people. This is mainly to avoid sweat and ruffles in my london "businessman about town" uniform. They are pretty slow when doing so but still lots faster than walking. They're also pretty comfortable.
Now up the cadance to 120+ and get in an aero position and they're marginally faster but horrendously uncomfortable. Oh and you look like a damn fool and a dandy.
cycling is good for my health and best to get up a sweat That's because it's true.
I had a couple of old, "sedate" bikes when I was a teenager. The best was a women's frame with a low single gear. Great for pootling. Terrible for longer distances e.g. Crail - St Andrews - Crail. Those became possible with an ancient "racer" with SA three speed.
'a damn fool and a dandy'
Ha! I'd love to look like some kind of louche fop on a bike.....instead of some sort of dilapidated Calvinist stormtrooper.
"
But without a doubt the key success story of the Boris Bike scheme has been, for me, the way in which it has acted as a super-charger for everyday and ordinary cycling. The "come as you are" "turn up and ride" nature of the system has won over a whole new legion of fans who are realising, perhaps for the first time, that whether you're kitted out in lycra or high heels anyone can ride a bike.
"
(My bold.)
http://ibikelondon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/two-years-of-boris-biking-where-would.html
Clearly it can give a degree of confidence/reassurance if you can 'keep up with the traffic'. But realistically it either passes you still (slightly faster because you're going slower) or you're under/overtaking anyway.
However, there is an increased feeling that "you're holding up traffic".
Sometimes in yourself - although I don't ride like my gran, I do ride with kids, and you do want to chivy them along in certain circumstances.
Sometimes in other drivers - who then may feel the need to explain the error of your ways through various sorts of threatening behaviour.
Granted a primary cyclist always "holds up" drivers to some extent, but the percentage that get annoyed enough to do something about it at 20mph for 30 seconds is much less than the percentage that take action when reduced to 10 mph for 60 seconds...
Robert
Back from cycling bliss (Denmark!), although cycling nirvana (Netherlands) is rumoured to be even better...
"Granted a primary cyclist always "holds up" drivers to some extent,"
I always work on the zero-sum karma principle. There's plenty of times that I get held up by traffic (I do a lot of travelling up Leith Street during rush hour). For every minute sitting in the exhaust plume of a Lothian bus I gain "riding primary" credit for use later on. A non-guilty ride(*) is one where I end up having spent all my balance but not too far in the red. Similarly riding towards red lights, junctions or anywhere else that cars slow/stop anyway means I'm no longer in the way so can't feel guilty. (This doesn't stop stupid overtaking manoeuvres but I don't feel in the least bit responsible.)
*What an awful thing to say, but it's true.
IMO if you're worried about holding up traffic, you're on the wrong road. Plan your route in advance to avoid these worrying roads. That's how I solve that problem.
The problem with the karma approach is by definition you're holding up the 'good guys' - the impatient drivers squeeze past whatever you do... Even (especially) on narrow rural roads, I'll find myself hurrying along because someone's being nice and patient behind me, until I can find somewhere for them to pass me.
My understanding of e-bikes is you still need to put some effort in, but they might give you that boost you need to pedal several extra kilos of bike, plus all the non-aero effects of an upright position, up a long and unforgiving hill
"
He added that cyclists should look for quiet backstreet routes to avoid dangerous roads and suggested that it was reasonable for cyclists to ride “slowly and carefully” on wide pavements.
"
Forgot to add, I have two bikes that are definite sit-up-and-beg upright riding position: the Kona Ute, which glides along like a gondola and isn't designed for going fast (though it can, at a push go moderately quickly); and the Pashley Fold-it, with a sprung saddle, wee wheels, riser bars and wide range SA 5 speed gearbox it can put on a burst of acceleration (due to the wee wheels) but maxes out below what most folk would regards as speedy. @sallyhinch, you are right that an upright riding position increases rider awareness due to the ease of shoulder-checking. I think it also increases visibility to drivers as you are higher up and easier to spot, with or without hi-viz (I prefer without in daylight).
Both bikes are best enjoyed in a sedate fashion, but both are capable of a bit of modest speed if required. Neither is Dutch: one American designed (built in Taiwan); one English designed and built (and of an age when the SA components were probably still made in England too). Both great bikes in different ways: the Ute is a fantastic load carrier, both cargo and small people (on the wooden deck). It proved its worth as a cycle camping platform this summer too, but is light enough without panniers to be useful on day trips and excursions too. The Fold-it feels more solid and stable than other folding bikes I've ridden, due to the strong frame design. The braking is very good in all weathers due to dual hub brakes. I've ridden it in urban streets and also forest tracks. It's a perfect bike for taking on the train for a multi-modal journey. The fold is not particularly small but does make a difference where space in bike racks is tight. Even unfolded the bike fits in a smaller space due to the wee wheels and smaller frame. I've not attempted to take it as luggage on a coach or long distance bus but might try it one day.
"Granted a primary cyclist always "holds up" drivers to some extent,"
I dont buy this. I dont think the flow of traffic is significantly slowed, and I think it would be significantly slowed if those people cycling took cars instead.
Drivers perceive cyclists as slowing them down, but in fact, unless there are mass rides, all its doing is causing some variation in their speed to accomodate other road users.
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