CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
London cyclists collide with 25% of guide dogs
(27 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
-
"
A survey involving a fifth of guide dog owners in the city also found 70% had experienced a near miss with cyclists on pavements or jumping red lights."
Not good.
By definition the dogs will be 'under control' so cyclists have 'failed' to notice/take care with dog and pedestrian.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I agree that every cyclsits has a duty of care around those less able/more vulnerable, and a big and heavy book should be thrown at anyone found to be negligent riding on a pavement or through a red light who strikes any pedestrian, not just a guide dog / blind person. Although the difficulty of a dog in hearing an approaching bike over traffic noise and for a blind person to take avoiding action places even more onus on cyclists to be the responsible ones.
But... That headline is rather inflamatory and the article is a bit vague. In a survey of 20% of guide dog users (320) in London, 25% (16) reported a collision. Over what period is this? Are we talking 16 a year, or 16 ever. How many were hit by cars? How many were bumped into by other pedestrians. How many of those "pavements" were shared use or not?
It reads rather like a lazy bit like churnalism of the original press release, without any journalistic attempt to provide some context to the article. After all, painting "London cyclists" as one co-ordinated group of heartless runners-over of puppies is sure to get plenty of clicks and a good old "they don't pay road tax" debate going.
The link to the Guide Dogs website doesn't provide any further detail and the Evening Stannar' article is even less helpful.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Does anyone else find 320 guide dog users in London to be surprisingly low?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Not really if there are less than 5000 guide dog owners in the UK:
And having seen the training the dogs go through I can understand why there aren't that many in the UK
Posted 9 years ago # -
How many of these so-called 'guide dogs' were wearing helmets?
Posted 9 years ago # -
To be fair, most of them will be wearing a hi-vis jacket or lead.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Another reason for decent cycle infrastructure in my opinion - at least the bikes will be mostly in the cycle tracks and thus easier to predict. Whereas shared use pavements must be an absolute nightmare for the visually impaired.
I hadn't realised this until talking to a blind person with a guide dog, but they make the decision to cross the road based on what they're hearing, not that the dog somehow signals that the road is clear (which is sort of what I'd assumed but thinking about it is quite a complex concept for a dog). So bikes really are a significant problem - as are electric cars.
Posted 9 years ago # -
The story seems to have been updated to reflect a correction from the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association. It now reads:
"In a survey conducted by the association, of 33 guide dog owners in London who responded, 14 said they had been involved in a collision and 25 said they had been involved in a "near miss" with cyclists on pavements or jumping red lights.
A further five blind people without guide dogs said they had been in collisions with cyclists - out of 16 who responded to the survey."
So, it looks like they got a 10% response rate to their survey and it would be reasonable to think that (a) online self-completion surveys aren't the best way to canvass the opinions of blind and partially-sighted people and (b) it would be reasonable to think that people concerned about bicycles or with negative interactions with cyclists would be more strongly motivated to participate, overstating the true prevalence of problems. None of that detracts from the reasonable points they make but it does make the original story look a bit hysterical.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@sallyhinch, a fascinating fact! Given most people are right-handed I suspect most guide-dogs would sit at the right hand of their owners before crossing a road. This puts them in the collision path for any cyclist at the left edge of the road if they step out. I suspect we've not got nearly enough data to tell if people with rusty chains loud freewheels are involved in fewer collisions...
Posted 9 years ago # -
https://twitter.com/GuidedogsLondon/status/482112258756337664
Seems that Instography was right about the self-selecting nature of this survey. Guide Dogs have done a proper "Nicewaycode" job of taking what is a relatively minor (but concerning) issue and really made a farcical meal of it.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Guide Dogs have done a proper "Nicewaycode" job of taking what is a relatively minor (but concerning) issue and really made a
farcical mealdog's dinner of it.FTFY...
Robert
(who often doesn't get subtlety!)Posted 9 years ago # -
Not just bad statistics but bad maths too. The only way I can get close to 25% is to take the percentage of dog users who have experienced a collision and the total number of responses including non dog users.
Posted 9 years ago # -
really depressing. It is a serious issue - but this just trivializes it, and loses allies.
Posted 9 years ago # -
My two pence about the issue is that I think they are right, even with the small statistical sample we are talking about.
When I had eye surgery, I had to be walked home from Glasgow by my brother and my girlfriend and I definitely remember that the traffic, all traffic, felt much, much closer. We were on a wide pavement but it felt like I was in the middle of the lane.
Maybe what feels like a normal pass on a bike can be felt like a near miss for a blind person.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Maybe what feels like a normal pass on a bike can be felt like a near miss for a blind person."
I am absolutely sure you are right about this. And, as cyclists, we are probably the worst people to judge what is 'too close' or not.
I'm sure there are many times when we're sure we are fine, and the people we're cycling around are freaked out.
This morning, I was approaching the Kings junction. My light had gone red, the pedestrian signal was on, but I could see this couple looking at me, and hesitating before crossing. A middleaged man and younger woman - no mobility issues. As they reached the kerb, they turned and looked at me again. Why? because I hadn't slowed down. i was rushing to get to the crossing, hop off and cross with the pedestrians, so braked right at the last minute. But I know they thought I was going to barge straight through on the bike.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"I'm sure there are many times when we're sure we are fine, and the people we're cycling around are freaked out."
That's why 'we' need chicanes - to slow us down and bring everyone closer together...
Posted 9 years ago # -
I'm trying to get this idea through to the kids too - they tend to whizz along rather than giving pedestrians a wide berth, or being obviously about to stop. Giving way to pedestrians crossing side streets is something they still need to work on.
But never mind the kids, I'm sure I've mellowed as a driver and cyclist over the last five years too - clearly the genteel atmosphere of CCE...
Robert
Posted 9 years ago # -
"clearly the genteel atmosphere of CCE"
It's one thing to be described as 'that middle class forum', but genteel??
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
characterized by exaggerated or affected politeness, refinement, or respectability.
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
I've taken to nodding pedestrians across the George Street crossings because even when they're half-way across they stop, assuming that I won't.
Posted 9 years ago # -
OED - †b. Of behaviour: Courteous, polite, obliging.
However the † denotes an obsolete meaning, the current being Appropriate to persons of quality. Now chiefly with sarcastic implication.
So apologies for the insult, I blame my Northern Irish roots where language owes more to the King James Bible than the internet!
Robert
Posted 9 years ago # -
"So apologies for the insult"
I knew one wasn't being sent so no need for apology!
"I blame my Northern Irish roots where language owes more to the King James Bible than the internet!"
Perhaps - though I imagine the internet age 'started' in NI at much the same time as elsewhere.
The thing about language is that it evolves (some people seem to think it shouldn't), but it's always good to know/explore 'roots'.
Just because someone has put some info in a dictionary (paper or otherwise) doesn't mean that it is gospel (to coin a phrase).
Posted 9 years ago # -
"OED - †b. Of behaviour: Courteous, polite, obliging"
I think there is no doubt that people on CCE are obliging. That seems to have come as a (pleasant) surprise to some.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Going at a slight tangent I stopped to answer a transport Scotland survey currently being conducted on the Forth Road Bridge. One of the questions was along the lines of "do you ever feel pedestrians and cyclists get in each others ways", the questioner mentioned that several pedestrians but no cyclists said yes. I'm sure in the same way we think some car drivers are far to close when the drivers don't, pedestrians have a different view of us.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"do you ever feel pedestrians and cyclists get in each others' ways?"
I'd have tried to phrase that somewhat differently, to make it fairer on the slower - the faster the vehicle, the farther before it 'its way' will extend for the same time period, which is why anything on a road which isn't a brrrrmingly fast motor car is generally considered automatically in the way thereof.
Posted 9 years ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.
posts
