Here's an improvement to the north half. I've still to put in the road and parking bays, protected cycle paths all the way.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Marchmont to King's Buildings consultation
(113 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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I thought long and hard about the junction next to Reid Memorial Church; what would be appropriate for bicycles. Its quite an elongated junction so simultaneous green and protected intersections are a bit difficult.
A double roundabout seems to work quite well, bikes and feet around the perimeter and give way to motor traffic (for safety). And there should be room for a 10x2.5m bus to go round, there would be an off-camber hard shoulder for any particularly large vehicles.
Any thoughts are welcome.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I've sent these drawings off to the consultation team.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@i - good work. I like your ideas and cyclists seem to be much more prioritised in those drawings. What have you done about car parking on Blackford Avenue for example? Is the cycle lane you have inside the parked cars?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Drawing looks nice. What is vehicle lane width on your proposals? and are you proposing to narrow the footpaths?
Afraid I am less convinced by the argument for cyclists and peds not having priority on roundabouts. may be okay for some cyclists, but can't see it being positive for pedestrians at all.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@algo: It depends on which bit of Blackford Avenue. North of the rail line its tight for space so I thought angled kerbs à la swiss style might be an option. Not that much protection from cars but much better than abstract paint. And is it fair dedicating 3 lanes for motor vehicles?
On the south side where its hilly, there's more room and yes, parked cars protect the people on bicycles rather than people on bicycles protect the car paint work.
@ SRD. Compared to waiting around at traffic light controlled junctions, its much better for all involved. For cycling, giving way around roundabouts is not such a problem, you rarely have to stop in practice and you have two ways to get around. Its better for bicycle riders to be in control of their situation. Its important that you have that island so you only have to deal with one crossing at a time.
You could make cars give way to people walking, its easier for car drivers to predict them, unlike bicycles's momentum which is harder to read ahead.
Vehicle lanes are at about 3m wide, enough for a bus to get through. Buses often have to squeeze through smaller gaps because of parked cars anyway. Some parts of the pavement are slightly narrower, in other places there's more, but in general they are next to cycle paths rather than roads. I don't think the sacrifice is too bad, this comes to mind. If implemented, a lot more would-be-pedestrians will be cycling. You could narrow the cycle lanes to maintain existing pavement space if really needed.
Thanks for you thoughts!
Posted 9 years ago # -
Yes, some good ideas from @i, but I don't like 1-way traffic in Kilgraston Rd. First, buses need 2-way there. They are important. Second, a one-way like that seems likely to encourage speed. Better solution might be make it bus-only (with access for residents) and change the general ambience of the road to be ped/cycle priority. If bus only, you could perhaps also get away with a narrower roadway, with 2 or 3 passing places, e.g. at bus stops
Posted 9 years ago # -
Some good ideas there i. Well done for putting the effort in to designing this.
I think that the 'a view from the cycle path' motorist priority roundabout would definitely need speed tables at the cycle lane crossings. Otherwise, modern cars could easily tear through the roundabouts and be back up to high speeds at the crossing points.
Posted 9 years ago # -
@DdF: You're right, buses are important, it was tricky to decide what to do. I thought one way of the 41 bus could be re-routed (alternate route in yellow black dashes).
I do like your idea of making it a bus only route. If it becomes a nearly-car-free zone then that should be workable, especially since its just the 41 bus. Once you have too many buses it becomes like Grote Markt bus stop where its a bit intimidating, though no where nearly as bad as the busy bus routes in Edinburgh.
I would still have an uphill cycle path for any busses to overtake. And then you'd have to have a way of enforcing the residential access, perhaps automatic bollards placed near Hope Terrace.
@ edd1e_h: Might be good, hopefully it wouldn't be too bumpy for bus passengers! The narrow width of the road should help. I did put 10m space between the roundabout exit and crossing, its like that in the example, fits a bus length and gives bicycle users time to asses if the way is clear.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Spokes response to the consultation here:
from:
http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/members-campaigning/edinburgh/south-central-qbc-20mph/Posted 9 years ago # -
Thanks, @edd1e_h. Spokes' response reads like a demolition job on the original proposal. Would CEC really make a substandard proposal in the expectation that enthusiasts and pressure groups would do the actual design?
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Would CEC really make a substandard proposal in the expectation that enthusiasts and pressure groups would do the actual design?"
Not as such.
I do not know/understand whether the relevant bit(s) of CEC are inept/lazy or just doing what they can do/get away with within CEC, in the knowledge/hope/expectation that Spokes (etc.) would 'suggest' better ways of doing things.
This would be understandable 10, 20 (maybe 5) years ago, but surely isn't acceptable now.
Various senior councillors have been saying 'the right things' for quite a few years. They've made 20mph 'acceptable' - not easy. They have (so far) kept the 1% extra per year, for the cycle budget, going.
A fair bit of blame goes to the Scottish Government which really doesn't 'get' cycling and (additionally) lets LAs get on with things (or not) - in that context Edinburgh has done a good job.
I think it is reasonable to say that a lot of the detailed comments by Spokes should have 'automatically' been in CEC's 'initial' design. In addition 'bold' options - like road closures - should have been offered both as ideas for public discussion AND to show councillors what COULD be done.
Of course it could just be that the officials are right and that Edinburgh isn't ready for 'proper' cycle infrastructure - and never will be.
The city is not Copenhagen/London/Paris/New York/world class - and never will be.
And clearly we are just a bunch of self serving whingers who don't understand 'real life'.
We are also gullible enough to believe that George Street was something to do with 'cycling' when in fact it was designed a) to improve commerce and b) to flush out and marginalise the whingers.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Got a response from the project team. TL;DR version is I think the response indicates a qualified success with our lobbying efforts. They do appear to be listening.
Selected highlights below:
(On cycle lanes on the outside of parking):
"""
As a result of feedback received during the consultation exercise, a review of kerbside parking along the route is currently being carried out. As such, this may result in removal of further parking adjacent to the cycle lane along sections of the route.Mandatory cycle lanes are not generally used in areas where vehicles are permitted to cross the lane e.g. side road entrances, parking and loading bays etc. These lanes are most useful where there are few side roads and no parking or loading requirements along the route. However, if following the review of kerbside parking sections of the route are identified as being suitable for mandatory lanes, these will be considered.
"""
(On the Oswald Road area/splitter island):
"""
With regard to the Kilgraston Road/Grange Loan/Blackford Avenue/Oswald Road area, I can confirm that reducing vehicle speeds through the area will be a major consideration when the detailed design for this section is undertaken. Additional speed reduction measures will be provided on the southbound approach as part of the final design. In addition, an independent safety audit will form part of the design process, and this will highlight any safety concerns. Should the proposed layout be implemented, a further audit would be carried out on completion of the scheme when the new layout is operational, and again any safety issues or concerns identified would be considered.The detailed design of the new splitter island area is yet to be undertaken, however I can confirm that the cyclists will be able to travel both eastwards and westwards through the island. It is expected that this will enable the right-turn for cyclists from Grange Loan into Kilgraston Road (northbound) to be provided. Signage would be provided as part of the project to benefit any road users who may be unfamiliar with the new layout.
Consideration will also be given to implementing the splitter island on a temporary basis.
"""
On approach to junction on Blackford Road:
"""
With regard to cycle lanes on the approaches to Blackford Junction (Blackford Avenue/West Savile Terrace/Charterhall Road), further changes will be made on the Blackford Avenue arms of the junction, and these changes will form part of the final design which is advertised later this year.
"""
Posted 9 years ago # -
Anyone heard anything recently about this?
Posted 8 years ago # -
In the CEC cycling budget:
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/50113/item_77_-_9_budget_commitment_to_cycling
it mentions "Marchmont Road - Kings Buildings Ph1 Segregated cycleway, £ 300,000"
(my bold)
Is this true? Will it really be segregated? Or another QBiC?
Posted 8 years ago # -
I think the key there is probably the "Ph 1" bit. You would have to see the breakdown of the work packages.
Posted 8 years ago # -
There was no sign of segregation in the consultation, more like paint on the road.
My response suggested putting the cycle lane inside the parking rather than outside (something not included in the Spokes response), which would then make it segregated (at least for the length of Marchmont Road), but I don't recall even soft segregation originally.
Although perhaps there was some limited segregation at the junction of Whitehouse Terrace/Kilgraston Road, where there may have been some hard infrastructure just at the corner prior to the proposed clockwise one way system with Oswald Road.
So, intriguing!
Robert
Posted 8 years ago # -
On Tuesday (19th July, mid-afternoon, not rush hour) I passed the remains of a serious car crash at the Grange Loan/Kilgraston Road junction. One car upside down south of the junction, another in the middle of the junction with bashed in side.
I don't have any further information, but it suggests there's something wrong with the current road layout, speed limit or compliance.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Quite a few incidents at that point over the years on Crashmap.
I've had people not STOP and squeeze past me when I've been waiting at the STOP line for a gap in the fast-moving Kilgraston traffic.Posted 7 years ago # -
I don't have any further information, but it suggests there's something wrong with the current road layout, speed limit or compliance.
Definitely a junction which could be improved - traffic turning right onto Kilgraston Road usually needs to wait a long time for an appropriate gap, which means people are more likely to get frustrated/impatient and pull out when there's not really a big enough gap. If I'm going North, I always go Blackford Avenue/Oswald Road/Kilgraston Road. Ironically making the original problem worse, I suppose.
The other big problem in that area, which I didn't see mentioned in this thread yet, is the Grange Loan/Blackford Avenue junction. Drivers going straight along Grange Loan are liable to ignore/miss cyclists following the road round onto Blackford Avenue. I'm not sure what can be done about this, but it's something I worry about when I cycle that way.
Posted 7 years ago # -
This nexus of junctions has been a danger zone since I was a student. My flatmate wrecked his Claude Butler Dalesman after a lady pulled out on him as he tanked in to KB for a nine o'clocker. No visible damage at the time, but the top tube broke two days later.
First time I fell off was on black ice at the Grange Loan/Blackford Avenue junction. Went from tanking it in to KB for a nine o'clocker to sliding up Grange Loan on my bum with no intervening memory.
I've since learned not to tank it in for nine o'clockers. Might be best to make the square of roads a big one way roundabout type affair?
Posted 7 years ago # -
A friend of mine crashed his Saab at Grange Loan/Kilgraston Road some time ago. Someone pulled out in front of him.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@IwratS - Might be best to make the square of roads a big one way roundabout type affair?
I think that's the gist of the plans - a large clockwise one way system, which is effectively the route most locals take North/South. Obviously forces the West/East traffic into a little detour, but shouldn't be too bad.
Robert
Posted 7 years ago # -
When's the work due to go ahead, does anyone know? The consultation was the year before last, by the looks of this thread.
Posted 7 years ago # -
https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/marchmont-to-king-s-buildings-cycle-route-consulta
"What happens next: ...It is currently anticipated that the statutory procedures will commence in April 2015."
Posted 7 years ago # -
Anyone know about any 'plans', 'updates'?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The next step will be a statutory consultation on the Traffic Orders required to implement the scheme (e.g. to restrict parking and loading). This is expected to be advertised publicly in 2016 with a view to constructing the scheme in 2017."
Also has links to plans, but these seem to be the original proposals.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I've heard they are applying for CL funding before the Sustrans deadline for this year (which has already passed).
There will most likely be a TRO as the next stage, so drumming up letters of support will be important. Should be this academic year, well before summer holidays.
Sounds like project is moving along and is in the current work plan still.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Someone posted a response the got from the council about this on the PoP Facebook page
"A TRO process will commence shortly for the first section of the route to be delivered, from the Meadows to Blackford, and we hope to be able to commence delivery of this section in early 2021."
Posted 4 years ago # -
I seem to remember the last designs being totally unprotected dashed white line, with single yellows. Will it be less rubbish than the previous designs? Or will it be exactly the same as the last consultation?
Posted 4 years ago #
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