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"Tram fall cyclists to sue ‘negligent’ council"

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  1. PeteJohnston
    Member

    @Kenny
    I can't think of a way to force crossing the tracks at 90° that wouldn't involve coming back into the flow of traffic at 90°. Maybe forcing all cyclists to go through the jug handle which has traffic lights already. The only problem I have there is how it always seems blocked with taxis opening their doors without looking.

    @LaidBack
    <Joke>Maybe we should all be made to use those massive fat tyres. A bit like forcing all drivers to use a Ford Transit. I suppose that someone could then take Edinburgh Council to court for infringing their human rights since cyclists have the right to use 23C if they so desire :)</Joke>

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. newtoit
    Member

    <Tongue in cheek> I see that in the minds of EEN commenters it's a noble crusade to claim against the council for damage to your vehicle caused by driving too quickly into potholes, whereas suffering actual physical harm due to unprotected holes in the road is being a leech on the public purse and the worst of compensation culture!

    They could always try going a different route </Tongue in Cheek> or driving less quickly...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. Morningsider
    Member

    There is an available solution. Rubber flangeway inserts (stop sniggering at the back). Effectively a rubber plug that "fills" the gap in the tram rail so bikes can pass safely over them, but can be depressed by the weight of a passing tram.

    I don't think they are currently in use in the UK, but they are in use on mainland Europe:

    http://www.strail.de/index.php?id=197&L=1

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "I don't think they are currently in use in the UK"

    No but yes, his doesn't actually seem to use the important gap filler -

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11324&page=24#post-177045

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. Morningsider
    Member

    chdot - Possibly just a poor photo. The description I linked to above states:

    "An easily replaceable flangeway element closes the flange groove. Any rolling stock, will easily press the replaceable flangeway element down but accomodates enough resistance for pedestrians, cyclists, wheelchair users, baby carriages and inline skaters. As an added benefit ice formation in the flange groove is no longer possible."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. IIRC those filler strips are for proper tram systems. CEC have actually bought a light rail system, which are heavier and would damage the filler strips.

    Maybe I dreamt that, but it sounds like something CEC would do.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. wingpig
    Member

    Wonder how the filler strips would perform under harrassment from things like big heavy buses or the big heavy tipper trucks going to/from the construction at Morrison Yards?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. Morningsider
    Member

    Bikeability Edinburgh - the fillers are designed to cope with mainline trains with a maximum speed of 120kmph, so should cope with the trams. Not sure how it performs against large road vehicles - it would be nice if the council could investigate this though.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Tulyar
    Member

    I reckon its about time I stepped in here, but where to start.

    veloSTRAIL - it is NOT a rubber insert for the flangeway groove. Goodyear tried that in 1989 with their OMNI rubber level crossings and rubber tube glued in the flangeway. This and almost all rubber in the flangeway solutions have failed as the problem was not thought through. There is nowhere to compress the rubber without making the flangeway bigger and non-standard, and the action of the flanges on the rubber will carve it up. VeloSTRAIL is a complete package solution designed around a standard level crossing panel, not a stand-alone groove filler.

    The problem in Edinburgh is not simply the rail and the groove, it is the failure of the contractor to get anywhere close to the standards of surface flatness set out in the ORR guidance for installing rails in the street surface, and it might be implied, TiE for accepting the work as satisfactory. Informal discussion around those involved in the tram industry notes that in comparison to Blackpool , Manchester, and the first phase of Nottingham NET Edinburgh's street track is the absolute nadir.

    In Sheffield there is a particular diligence in making regular patrols with a gauging trolley, to ensure that the rail surface NEVER gets more than 3mm above the abutting road surfaces, AND the road surfaces abutting the rails are smooth and flat, right up to the poured seal between rail and concrete*. For the newest phase of Manchester Metrolink, the finished track has a smooth concrete surface to the seal-line delivered to a near consistent +2mm above the rail head.* The substantial damages awarded to Mr Roe, a car driver who received life-changing injuries when his car has all tyres lifted clear of the road surface by rails that were too high gives Sheffield a particular focus in this respect.

    There are basically 4 ways that tram rails can cause a cyclist to lose control

    1) the idiot move of cycling close to and parallel with the groove and dropping straight in to it - rarely done intentionally

    2) the attempt to cross the groove at a very shallow angle AND at low speed. the momentum of the rotating tyre is insufficient to counteract the forces from the 2 points of contact between the tyre and railhead/keeper. The resulting moment turns the tyre parallel with the groove - see 1)

    3) the ridges formed by the edge of the concrete pad against the tarmac,the sunken joint seal, the raised rail, groove, keeper, another sunken joint seal, the edge of the concrete and then the joint where the tarmac starts again - for Edinburgh almost every one of them exceeding the maximum safe height set for the likes of dropped kerbs, and (ironically) tramline tactile paving units at 6mm or less (3mm for slippery details like manhole frames and thermoplastic road markings. That is not including the thickness of the green tarmac overlay, which has also caused a few spills when cyclists clip the edge at the wrong angle.

    4) the rail is well above the road surface. Even if you cross the rail square-on, if you have a side force on the tyres (turning a corner)the tyre will slide sideways if the contact patch is not touching the road. A cycle tyre contact patch is approx 120mm long, and will normally be in contact with high friction road surfaces either side of the rail - unless the rail is 'high'

    Some early (pre operational)pictures indicate steps of 8-10mm, almost guaranteed to cause problems to any cyclists striking them

    The veloSTRAIL system has been installed at Aiskew LC for over 1 year, and is a 15 degree skew (making it a 42 metre crossing to get across a 7.3m wide carriageway. There is a substantial quarry traffic in 32T rigid 4-axle trucks - the type most damaging to the road structure. there are no reports of problems and no cyclists' falls reported. Easy to visit - 1Km from A1M and about 12-15Km from Northallerton Station should anyone want to try it out

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    @Tulyar thanks.

    So apart from the whole 'design' (inc type of track), there needs to be a look at actual road/rail junctions - in a 'regular maintenance' sense. Daily? Weekly?

    Are you saying installing veloSTRAIL isn't possible at Haymarket without replacing rails?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Morningsider
    Member

    Tulyar - many thanks for your expert opinion.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Tulyar

    Fascinating. In case anyone else is having trouble visualising the veloSTRAIL system;

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

    We can imagine Haymarket and Scottish workies into the video ourselves....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    There was at one time an agreement to install the STRAILastic vibration damping system to the section of track outside the Royal Scottish Academy but this didn't materialise.

    One can only hope that they're using extra Blu Tac to keep the art on the walls now that the trams are rumbling past.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. Dangerous
    Member

    @Morningsider

    Thanks for you post re Road Accident Investigation.

    Your post is reasonable, logical and well structured but I think we need to ask more questions.

    Let's focus on the least contentious factor, the vehicle.

    You said "I haven't heard anyone say that the bikes that were involved in these falls were mechanically unsound - so that's the vehicle ruled out."

    I agree that we have no knowledge that any of the bikes were mechanically unsound. However there is not enough information to rule the vehicle out.

    Consider the following:
    Rider A uses his road bike and falls. Previously used MTB successfully
    Rider B falls after fitting new tyre. Previous worn tyre was successful
    Rider C changes tyre pressures. Previous tyre pressures were successful

    I could go on. For the record I don't think the vehicle is the cause, although it will be a factor.

    What makes the analysis very complex is that the Factors you have identified: Road User, Vehicle, Road are not independent.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. LaidBack
    Member

    PeteJohnston Of course the real answer is to cycle an ICE recumbent trike. Junctions like Haymarket then become quite relaxing and you can have narrower tyres again!

    newtoit They (drivers) could always try going a different route </Tongue in Cheek> or driving less quickly...
    Which is why many drivers want the 20mph limit. Less damage to cars, less damage to roads, less damage to people. Whatever your priorities, it's win win!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. steveo
    Member

    @dangerous. Surely if the bicycle was road worthy enough to get the rider to Haymarket it is not the cause of the fall?

    Seriously, why are you making such heavy weather of this? The fault lies with the council for ignoring every piece of advice, including its own, that this design would be dangerous for cycles and they've pressed on any way. Even after people are being injured they've ignored that. Only after they get hit with a massive compensation bill they might look at it seriously, more money that could have been saved by looking to other cities.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    For me it's fairly open-and-shut.

    The council's (TIE at one point) advice / guidance for crossing the tramlines are "as close to 90 degrees as possible and not under an angle of 60 degrees" - these figures aren't an afterthought, they were in the public domain long before work had even started in some parts.

    The road markings at Haymarket and flow of traffic crosses the lines somewhere between 20 and 40 degrees depending on which lane you take. I forget the precise figures but I did once measure them in one of my videos.

    So, the council is perfectly aware of the safe angles for cycles to cross tram lines, publishes these yet proceeds regardless with a road layout that means there is no possible safe way to follow the advice. Groups such as Spokes were pointing this out to the council in the design consultations since it seems like the dawn of time (which I believe is when they started building the tram), yet the council's approach was simply to unleash their baffling design on an unwitting public without any attempt to ride a bike or 10 across it to test it. Cue an ongoing wave of cyclists of all sorts and levels of experience and types of bike coming down and the noted serious and painful injuries and a council response of a few signs and tinkering with paint and a bit of faux-concerned hand wringing on the part of some officials.

    If that isn't at best sheer pig-ignorant stupidity and at worst criminal negligence then I don't know what it is.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chrisfl
    Member

    My only worry is that the council will just respond by banning cycling through the Haymarket Junction...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. wingpig
    Member

    Perhaps, to go with the non-regulation "CYCLISTS STAY IN NARROW WEE GUTTER LANE" signs in the council's proposed solution, we could have extra signs:

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. Snowy
    Member

    Serious question: if a longer contact patch is better, am I better sticking with 23c tyres which I understand have a longish contact patch, or going for 28c or even 32c tyres which might intuitively (to me) seem like a 'safer' option for crossing tram tracks, even though they have a shorter contact patch?

    Or am I basically doomed?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. Morningsider
    Member

    Dangerous - obviously I have had to generalise, the circumstances of every fall will be slightly different. However, I would rule out any of your three scenarios as indicating that the condition of the bikes had anything to do with the falls. A road should be laid out so a competent cyclist can use different types of bike and a variety of tyre pressures or designs without fear of falling. Imagine if a road was designed so only Ford cars could pass, or cars with tyres pumped up to 40psi - that would be ridiculous. Same goes for bikes.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. PeteJohnston
    Member

    @Dangerous
    If the experience of the cyclist and condition of the bike determine whether or not someone will fall off at Haymarket shouldn't we have a testing station, perhaps outside the pub, where the bike can be checked and an examination room to check the experience of the cyclist?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. Instography
    Member

    Can we have it inside the pub?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Arellcat
    Moderator

    …the real answer is to cycle an ICE recumbent trike. Junctions like Haymarket then become quite relaxing and you can have narrower tyres again!

    Once again I prove the exception to the rule. A few months ago on a homeward ride passing through Haymarket eastbound in primary position I carelessly took a slightly wider line than I meant to, and my torpedo's front-right wheel became stuck in the track groove. It was quite a task to become unstuck as I fretted about 'holding up' 'the traffic'.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. Instography
    Member

    Any tried those new triple-bladed Occam's Razors?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. stiltskin
    Member

    Any tried those new triple-bladed Occam's Razors?

    I find the single bladed ones are simpler to use.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. gembo
    Member

    I have cycled to occam where William came from. Ironically, instead of going straight there I headed east from London docklands, out through the chilterns and round to windsor first ( was taking part in the London Revolution). Was a couple of years back, quiet, sleepy, Surrey village.

    These days it is all beards and not enough shaving

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. neddie
    Member

    When tram wheels lose traction on the rails, they have a mechanism to dump sand on the rails and thereby regain grip.

    Therefore it should be made a legal requirement for all bicycles to be fitted with a system that can electronically detect the impending approach of a tram track crossing. A few milliseconds before the track is crossed, the system must then dump copious quantities of sand, to ensure traction is maintained.

    Kickstarter...?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. steveo
    Member

    I thought they had electro-magnets? The bike equivalent Could double up as a dynamo for running a Tram searchlight and motor for getting over Drum Brae.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. wingpig
    Member

    It's not beyond the realms of possibility to have a series of grippy-surfaced panels forming a miniature bridge across the tracks which would be celeverly folded/retracted out of the way by the action of the extremely heavy tram on levers either side of the miniature bridge. What is unfortunately beyond the realms of possibility is having a lanesworth of tram track reserved for cyclists to cross over, to keep buses, taxis and massive construction trucks away from that bit to avoid battering the relatively delicate mechanisms.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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