CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Grantham girl, 4, gets cycling-on-path police warning

(27 posts)

  1. crowriver
    Member

    Parents of a four-year-old girl were baffled when a police officer threatened to confiscate her bike because she was cycling on a pavement.

    Sophie Lindley, who uses stabilisers, was cycling on Trent Road, Grantham with dad Dale, when they were stopped.

    Police accepted while cycling on pavements was illegal, officers should use discretion with young children.
    One cycling charity pointed out being under 10, Sophie is too young to be able to break the law.

    Mr Lindley said they regularly let Sophie cycle to school.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-31805312

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. acsimpson
    Member

    I was just about to post that myself.

    Either the policeman was having a very bad day or he really needs to look for a new line of work.

    Lincolnshire Police apologised and said: "Safety is our priority and cycling on the pavement is illegal."

    Can anyone find a link between the two halves of that sentence?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    There is a non-mandatory "cycle lane" painted on the road, with no yellow lines and therefore full of parked cars, on a busy 30mph stretch of urban road here.

    Perhaps the plod thought he would be doing the world a favour by getting a 4 year old with stabilisers to cycle on that "facility"?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. crowriver
    Member

    This is the bit that gets me:

    "We stopped to look at some ducks when the officer pulled over and said she had to get off," he said. "He said 'The law is the law' and she was not allowed to ride on the path.
    He said 'If I catch you put her on her bike further up the road I will turn around and confiscate the bike'. I couldn't believe it. It's daft."

    So, the copper was in a car and decided to bully a four year old girl and her dad. Maybe the officer is a Clarkson fan?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The law is the law

    I imagine it went something like this;

    Father - I don't understand.
    Plod - It is against the leuo for you to rahd your instrument.
    Father - Leuo?
    Plod - What?
    Father - You say, it's against the leuo?
    Plod - Yes. Unless you have a proper leicanse.
    Father - What kind of license?
    Plod - A leicanse that permits the rahding of any bicycle instrument in a peublic plass for the peurpose of transport enterprize.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. Stickman
    Member

    the law is the law

    I'd like the copper to point out the part of the law that allows him to arbitrarily confiscate private property. From a four year old.

    (It's times like this that I appreciate CCE's no swearing rule. Otherwise I may go off on one.)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. Min
    Member

    Mr Lindley said they regularly let Sophie cycle to school.

    Well there's your problem. Such deviant behaviour needs to be severely dealt with.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Mine

    Do you think the police regard the schooling of girls as deviant? Nothing surprises me these days.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. Darkerside
    Member

  10. Kim
    Member

    As I have said elsewhere (https://twitter.com/kim_harding/status/574530725019541505) What sort of country are we when a 4 year old is told to man up & take the lane?

    OK so that is a completely different child, but the point is clear.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. Dave
    Member

    The awkward thing about letting kids (but only kids) cycle on pavements is that, inevitably, there must be one day when it's OK for them to do it but the next it isn't.

    By one definition, last day of their seventh year is fine in Scotland but on the stroke of midnight it would no longer be OK (criminal age of responsibility = 8) so not a day to be taking them to a 24 hour supermarket for some last minute birthday treats!

    But if they were to be cycling near Gretna, or perhaps Coldstream, they'd be OK on the pavement for another two years on the southern side of the border, only joining the roads on the north side.

    Or you can choose 16, or 18, or whatever. When you add into the mix that huge tracts of pavements are (often unsigned) shared use, the whole thing seems like a bit of an omnishambles.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. Arellcat
    Moderator

    inevitably, there must be one day when it's OK for them to do it but the next it isn't.

    I was ten years old, having only just passed my cycling proficiency test, and a policeman stopped me and asked where I should be cycling. "On the road, over there" I replied, pointing. I never rode on the pavement footway again.

    In defence I was riding with someone a couple of years younger and who wasn't post-cycling proficiency. In further defence I was riding up a road that I still dislike riding up.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. barnton-to-town
    Member

    No-one should be cycling on the road if they're uncomfortable with it.

    If anything, make it illegal for unaccompanied pre-teens to BE on the road.

    And get that copper's warrant card off him before someone does something really stupid like giving him a Tazer, or a firearm, heaven forbid.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. ih
    Member

    Interesting discussion on Radio 4 PM (Tuesday 10th). Worth listening to on iplayer at 44 mins 40 secs in. I would provide link if I knew how. Joe Irvin CEO Living Streets and Donnachadh McCarthy of Stop Killing Cyclists discussed the general issue of cycling on pavements and agreed on several things, like the key issue is that the roads are dangerous, and that statistics show that motorised vehicles cause way more death and injury to pedestrians on pavements than bikes. But the strongest evidence Irvin gave of real danger was that in a poll of elderly people 50% felt they had been 'nearly knocked down'. ie they had not been hit by a bike. Now, I don't want anyone to make anyone else feel fear on a shared path, but we must try somehow to persuade that there isn't a posse of crazed bikers whose aim is to mow down pedestrians. It would be useful to start with Council members and officials who clearly seem to think there is.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. Dave
    Member

    But the strongest evidence Irvin gave of real danger was that in a poll of elderly people 50% felt they had been 'nearly knocked down'. ie they had not been hit by a bike. Now, I don't want anyone to make anyone else feel fear on a shared path, but we must try somehow to persuade that there isn't a posse of crazed bikers whose aim is to mow down pedestrians.

    This is an intractable problem if approached this way. If you took a poll asking people if they had been nearly knocked down by runners you'd get a high response rate - wherever people mix, regardless of mode, contention will be reported.

    The correct way to approach this is to minimise the overall risk, that is to say, after balancing the risks posed by motor vehicles and cyclists and pedestrians to each other, where is the minimal risk place to allow cyclists to ride?

    It seems obvious from the reaction to this particular story that we accept in principal that it's best for cyclists to be able to ride on pavements. It's just a question of arguing about whether arbitrary distinctions like age are really adequate to discriminate between different cyclists.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    Surely what is being described in the 50%* is perceived risk or subjective danger, which is exactly what cyclists fear? Most of us aren't dragged under HGVs but we're all very aware of how easily it could happen?

    * I'm only surprised it isn't higher, given conversations I've had with elderly folk in my neighborhood who *all* seem to have been 'near knocked over'

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. neddie
    Member

    When I was a kid, it was legal in Scotland for children under 12 to cycle on the pavement/footway.

    Has that law been removed/changed?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. ih
    Member

    I was trying to link this story (4 year old in Grantham) with the shared path problem because so much infrastructure is, and will be, shared use. I'm not a fan of walkway cycling, except for kids, but shared use paths aren't different from walkways except with the crucial difference that we are expected to cycle on them, with our fellow path users having this totally irrational fear that they are in danger. The only way shared use will ever work is if this fear of non-existent danger can be reduced, not with cyclist slowing measures, but with facts.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Morningsider
    Member

    Children are not technically exempt from the legal restrictions on cycling on footways and footpaths. However, the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, Section 52 establishes that no-one aged under 12 can be prosecuted for an offence. This means anyone aged under 12 can freely cycle, in a responsible manner, on the pavement.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    It's just the kind of incident that will motivate me to head for Edinburgh on the 25th April.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    "If you took a poll asking people if they had been nearly knocked down by runners you'd get a high response rate"

    By coincidence, while walking on Easter Road yesterday evening I was nearly bowled over by a female jogger (iPod plugged in) as I turned right on the pavement at a junction. A glancing blow type collision on my right shoulder and arm: clearly she had tried evasive action after my rightward drift, but in the wrong direction. Naturally I had not signalled my intentions nor shoulder checked...

    I uttered an exclamation of surprise, the woman in question said nothing and jogged off down the street. Rather rude, I thought.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. davidsonsdave
    Member

    I would agree with Dave that you will struggle to change people's perception that they have nearly been knocked down by a bike. Whilst statistically there is a low risk of injury/death from being hit by a bike, I wouldn't go as far to say that it is a totally irrational fear.

    I cycle on the Blackhall and Roseburn paths every day and use them regularly for walking, running, etc.

    I personally have had to jump into the verge at the last second to avoid being hit by a bike (in broad daylight) and have had countless close shaves, even when I am clearly pushing the little ones in a pram/buggy.

    Some people are simply inconsiderate, no matter whether they are driving a HGV, bus, car, bike...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. mgj
    Member

    @Dave, sorry I just do not accept your argument at all. If we seek to convert a large number of travellers to cycling, there is no way that pavements have the capacity to permit safe movement for any significant numbers of cyclists and pedestrians. In Marchmont, where circa 25% of cycling traffic is on the pavement I feel much less safe on foot than I do cycling on my daily commute. I've never been hit by a lorry but I have been hit by a cyclist for not getting out of his way. Children cycling is nothing like the same issue as commuters on bikes, and it is wrong to pretend that it is and that most cyclists support pavement cycling. Road design needs improved, some drivers need educated, surfaces improved, and enforcement action taken against those who break rules or the law.

    When I had toddlers, nothing used to scare me more than the prospect of a cyclist hitting one of them doing nothing more than toddling around walking to nursery or the swings. Should I have had to put them on a leash so that they knew their place and got out of the way of the very important cyclist. Its not a beggar my neighbour issue.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    "Whilst statistically there is a low risk of injury/death from being hit by a bike..."

    It's useful to occasionally cycle whilst knackered/ill/injured/riding a really heavy and cumbersome bike to get a bit of perspective on what it's like to not be able to accelerate swiftly to motor-traffic speed out of lights on junctions, keep up with motor traffic up hills, bunnyhop over potholes and so on.

    Next time you see someone of limited strength/balance/agility (through age/infirmity/illness/whatever) walking along the pavement, watch them for a moment - could they easily skip to the side to dodge out of the way of something, be it a ned on a bike, a toddler on a scooter or a runner? If their shoulders were bumped by someone heavy moving at speed, might they easily absorb it or perhaps be spun around and fall to the floor? If they fell over, might they be able to roll or catch themselves or might they land badly and crack a forearm or collarbone or hip?

    Whether my largest toddler is scootling, cycling or scuttling I'm trying to instil a respect for other footway-users in him, as was instilled in me (helped by being raised on a street with three or four retirement homes on it) - as the faster-moving entity, watch out for others, who may not be as sharp-eared or -eyed, fast-reacting, agile, bouncy or quick-healing.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "It seems obvious from the reaction to this particular story that we accept in principal that it's best for cyclists to be able to ride on pavements. It's just a question of arguing about whether arbitrary distinctions like age are really adequate to discriminate between different cyclists."

    Really???

    I think there is general agreement that allowing 4yos on pavements is perfectly reasonable and that, in this case, the policeman was not a credit to any organisation.

    Beyond that, I think most people on CCE are not in favour of allowing all cyclists on all pavements.

    Whilst this would make it 'simple' because 'everyone' would know that bikes could be ridden 'anywhere', the downside would be significantly greater than the benefits.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. Dave
    Member

    @Dave, sorry I just do not accept your argument at all. If we seek to convert a large number of travellers to cycling, there is no way that pavements have the capacity to permit safe movement for any significant numbers of cyclists and pedestrians.

    But if we had a situation where there were large numbers of travellers cycling, they wouldn't need to be on the pavement (even kids). I think/hope we would agree that if proper segregated cycle facilities were ever built here, it would no longer be appropriate for kids to share the pavements with old grannies on zimmers when there is a completely safe, segregated alternative?

    In Marchmont, where circa 25% of cycling traffic is on the pavement I feel much less safe on foot than I do cycling on my daily commute.

    But 25% of cyclists evidently feel so unsafe on the road that they are too afraid to use it at all. The benefit to them is obviously large since we know that it is far faster and less inconvenient to use the road, which gives us an estimate of the "fear cost" they are avoiding (there must be a proper term for this).

    It does come at a cost to you, but who's to say that the cost to you is more than the benefit to them (this is, after all, explicitly the reasoning behind the countless miles of shared use pavements that have been set up).

    People are too pragmatic to accept that a fiercely busy shared pavement is OK but use of a near empty non-shared pavement would be immoral, I think. Especially when they perceive a direct threat to themselves which they are avoiding.

    Children cycling is nothing like the same issue as commuters on bikes, and it is wrong to pretend that it is and that most cyclists support pavement cycling. Road design needs improved, some drivers need educated, surfaces improved, and enforcement action taken against those who break rules or the law.

    To reduce this as much as possible, there is an overlap between the youngest commuters (paper round?) and children who might take a bike to school. So is it nothing like the same issue even when it's the same person doing the cycling?

    I constantly see people cycling on the pavement alongside Maybury Rd even though this is not a signed cycle route (full on "maximum bin-man" pro commuters at that). The black and white view is that they should be driving instead.

    I don't disagree *at all* with your last sentence BTW. I don't expect to see this transformed in my lifetime, but it would be nice.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. mgj
    Member

    @Dave, it is not fear that keeps cyclists on the pavement in Marchmont, but setts.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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