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Glasgow Bin Lorry Crash(es) 4 months an still no "immediate answers"

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  1. Tulyar
    Member

    Mention the Glasgow Bin Lorry Crash and people will generally associate this with the 6 deaths that happened just before Christmas 2014, and a great solemnity with which the leader of Glasgow Council, Gordon Matheson promised that we would have answers as quickly as possible, on his visit to the scene the following morning.

    Now, has this been an air or rail incident we would have seen a statement of the basic facts, and the intention to investigate (or not - in some cases where no new lessons would be learned) within 2 weeks of the incident. This effectively quashes the spread of speculations and rumour and sets the platform to collate objective and impartial evidence for the independent and objective investigation process.

    It hasn't happened, and we are now 4 months later with no public detail concerning a report in progress or inquiry having been convened.

    By law, the Road Traffic Act does mandate that Glasgow Council takes action, through the massively flawed Section 39 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1988. This says that Glasgow Council MUST investigate crashes - in this case a crash of a vehicle operated by Glasgow Council, and driven by a Glasgow Council employee - but then, and this beggars belief, from those investigation reports Glasgow Council MUST tell themselves what measures to put in place to avoid or mitigate the risk of any similar incident in the future. As Juvenal noted 2000 years ago Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes basically the fox is running the security patrols for the hen house!

    There is no requirement to publish any Section 39 investigation reports, not the recommendations and action taken. compare this with the Rail Accident Investigations - fully available on-line, for the purpose of ensuring everyone can learn from their findings.

    I did an FoIA request for the Section 39 data from Glasgow, and others have sought this from their local Councils, generally finding that the material offered would fail as a submission for a Scottish Highers exam, let alone a properly written investigative report. Glasgow offered 2 A4 sheets listing the number and location of crashes, by way of 'investigations carried out over the past 5 years' - although this detail was only covering 4 years - 2 years per sheet.

    To see how a road crash report should be delivered it is useful to look at the Oxshott incident in 2010 where a concrete mixer truck crashed over a bridge on to a train, very nearly breaking the run, since 2007, of not having any passenger killed on any UK train service. In that report https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/bridge-strike-and-road-vehicle-incursion-onto-the-roof-of-a-passing-train-near-oxshott-station RAIB tells Surrey CC and DfT what measures they should be taking to prevent any future crashes of this type, both at the specific site and on similar sites elsewhere. they make a single recommendation (enforceable through the Rail Regulator) for Network Rail to review bridges where this hazard exists, and get the recommendations made to the Roads providers, delivered.

    The diligent and independent investigation of crashes, with the enforcement of recommended action through an independent regulator- something we do not have for the infrastructure and only a piecemeal provision for the commercial operation of vehicles (buses/trucks & taxis & minibuses - but not the growing number of small vans, and mobile plant) on the roads.

    PACTS The Parliamentary Transport Safety Group reported on this in 25 March, calling for a Highways Accident Investigation Branch and a regulatory framework to match those for rail, air and marine transport. It is on the table post GE2015 but we may be able to deliver it in Scotland directly, and ahead of England.

    I said Bin Lorry Crashes, and prior to the Christmas 2014 one, Glasgow killed a pensioner through poor management of reversing a bin lorry, and then had another driver collapse at the wheel last week and crash into a garden on a narrow and steep residential road (Kings Park).

    3 points would probably be noted in an RAIB-style report on the Christmas crash.

    1) the bin lorry fleet has Euro 5/6 engine management systems. These can be connected to geo-location beacons or GPS which directly controls the maximum speed that can be attained within an area - already used for oil depots and similar sites etc. In this way bin lorries operated in pedestrian zones can be limited to 5-10 mph, as can buses in Bus Stations, and 20mph limits enforced by the fact that large vehicles become moving speed limiters.

    2) the reversing move and other considerations should see bin lorries fitted with intelligent proximity sensors, that apply the brakes when a pedestrian is detected too close to the truck.

    3) Glasgow Council as admitted that it buys the trucks solely on price, and as such buys trucks with high cabs and high ground clearance - for off road capability, which it needs less than 0.5% of the time. Many Councils or their contractors now pay the premium of 15-20% to buy a direct vision, walk-in cab, to reduce staff injuries (climbing up into the cab and slipping on the steps), increase staff efficiency (faster getting in and out when truck stops to collect from bins) and with the safety benefit of being able to directly look, at eye-level at the pedestrians and cyclists outside. This also has a further benefit - the lower cab and front valance may mean that instead of hitting a 'victim' at hip level, and knocking them flat . to be run over by the wheels, the cab shape will hit a pedestrian forwards, and possibly to the side, eliminating the main reason that HGV impacts with pedestrians, occurring at roughly the same rate per vehicle per year as bus impacts, result in 4 x as many fatal injuries, largely through being crushed under the wheels. The side panels and valances on a bus or coach, coming down much closer to the ground, prevent that fatal detail of the victim in an impact going under the vehicle and then under the wheels.

    The report if done effectively should require Glasgow Council to equip its vehicles, especially those used in areas of high pedestrian traffic, with 1) speed limiting systems and 2) proximity brake application systems, in a progressive and time limited programme, and to plan the replacement of vehicles to specify low-cab vehicles with front and side panels which work to deflect any road user involved in a collision with the vehicle, clear and away from the risk of being run over by the wheels.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. neddie
    Member

    I find it really shocking that they knew for decades that the driver had been suffering dizzy spells.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33732335

    Question is, what will they do to prevent dizzy or otherwise medically unfit drivers from driving heavy and dangerous machinery in the future?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. Roibeard
    Member

    I find it shocking, that driving any vehicle, never mind an HGV, with a disqualifying medical condition, is NOT a criminal offence.

    And find it obscene that killing people under these conditions, is also not criminal, but "just" a tragic accident.

    One can only hope that the Procurator Fiscal regrets their premature conclusions in the light of these revelations.

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. dougal
    Member

    The regulation on neurological medical conditions and the effect on driving status is a bit iffy. It depends on which one of several arguable categories apply. I know you can be prosecuted if you're involved in an accident with an epilepsy diagnosis.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    Even then I think the epilepsy ban expires.

    I have a relative who has had episodes in the past but he's not had one for years and drove to Germany last week.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. Stickman
    Member

    Yes, knew a guy at uni who had a seizure and couldn't drive for a number of years (I think five). When that expired he bought a new car, but had another seizure within a few weeks of purchase. Think he lost his license permanently after that.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. neddie
    Member

    Another one:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-34016849

    Bin lorry overturns on roundabout in Dundee

    Maybe for the sentient beings thread...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. Tulyar
    Member

    We've had a lot of attention paid to Harry Clarke but the questions that have not been asked are relevant to many other fatal HGV crashes.

    How for example do transport managers responsible in law to maintain records and monitor the fitness of their drivers and vehicles to be put on the road manage to miss fail on reference checks, and events in the driver's history. Not only Mr Clarke, but Barry Meyer who was taken on by a the Colin Drummond with no check to prove he actually had a valid licence, and reveal his dreadful driving record, or Joao Lopes, who left a trail on minor crashes, and killed twice through not wearing his prescribed glasses.

    It was a massive indictment on management of bin lorry crews to see an unopened beer bottle in the cab, sealed by the Police after the crash - could you imagine that on a train or plane?

    So the is that it? no review as in an air or rail inquiry on the injuries sustained and what other factors come in to play? Unlike most operators of refuse trucks, Glasgow buys high cab DAFs, explaining to an FoI request that this is to ensure best value on vehicle purchase (ie the cheapest possible). High cab (off road) trucks will hit an adult pedestrian above the knee, but low cab will strike marginally lower, and potentially can be aiming to push the pedestrian (or cyclist) forward rather than knock them down. Here's some comparative images taken at Ride London to show a low front valance (apron) vs a 'tonka toy' HGV as driven by 'Yorkie man' to use all the non-PC imagery.

    Previous comments on speed regulation (fitted to refuse trucks for at least 2 Scottish Councils) and proximity sensors with emergency brake application, would I'd suggest be areas that the FAI should take on board in preparing their account.

    Let's see what happens.

    Oh and for 2014 a check on press reports suggests that more people were killed by reversing bin lorries (including one in Glasgow) than th Christmas crash.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. Min
    Member

    The whole system stinks but then if the driver is going to lie to their employers and lie to their GP I fail to see how more checks could have helped. And why it even matters when the crown is going to protect anyone who lies about their health and then kills people.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. acsimpson
    Member

    Meanwhile...
    Vintage jet restrictions announced

    Anyone for a double helping of standards?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. Tulyar
    Member

    @Min I ran some checking -

    Train Drivers now have a European Train Driving Licence which is a file for life of their train driving career - managed by ORR.

    Pilots have very similar operated by CAA and medicals only carried out by licensed doctors (just ONE in Scotland apparently, and when he retires...) records of flying history don't appear to be as closely logged as train drivers

    But not many planes carrying up to 1500 passengers, and rolling in to stations with up to 4 x number of passengers per day than use UK's busiest airport, and save for some seriously foolish hazardous approach paths to airports (Glasgow being one of them, Heathrow another) any plane at the most hazardous start and end points of a flight will crash into areas which are not densely populated. Trains on the other hand go into the heart of cities, albeit on a guided system.

    Just track the litany of drivers who have killed and revealed driving histories which have screamed "Revocation now" had this information been passed through a single file of driving history which is their vocational driving licence.

    A few from just immediate recall

    Putz
    Lopes
    Foster
    Meyer

    Note also the photographs taken inside the cab when the Police sealed it after the crash - the unopened bottle of beer in the foot well of the crew seats. The focus here has been on the driver - and there will be many breathing sighs of relief - at least for the present, that investigations did not appear to probe the failings in driver history checks, and crew management.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. Min
    Member

    The focus here has been on the driver - and there will be many breathing sighs of relief - at least for the present, that investigations did not appear to probe the failings in driver history checks, and crew management.

    You are obviously watching a different inquiry to me.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Remarkably, 2 FAIs reporting on the same day into fatalities caused by HGV/PCV drivers passing out at the wheel:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-34877911

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34879150

    The full judgements can be read here (in due course, the Borders one isn't up yet);

    https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/fatal-accident-inquiries

    The Glasgow/First Bus one is particularly shocking. (Literally) bloody-mindedness and failure to acknowledge that they are a danger to others on the road. Why will no-one prosecute these people in a criminal court?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. Charterhall
    Member

    Were the other drivers "fat, uneducated, and from the West of Scotland" too ?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. slowcoach
    Member

    The full report from the Fatal Accident Inquiry is now online. While media reports concentrate on the driver, his health and failure to disclose issues, the report also goes into detail of autonomous emergency braking systems which can be used to stop vehicles and avoid crashes without relying on drivers.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. wee folding bike
    Member

  17. neddie
    Member

    Over the Christmas break, another bin lorry driver became incapacitated while at the wheel:

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/bin-lorry-crash-driver-in-serious-condition-in-hospital-1-3986806

    No one killed this time, but why is this allowed to continue to happen?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. slowcoach
    Member

    @edd1e_h - The bin lorry driver in this case died a few days later. Press reports said 'His health was checked twice a year and there were never any worries about his fitness for the job.

    A council source said after the crash: “All paperwork relating to this driver was in order.

    “There were no concerns about him.” The council said they regularly carry out a range of strict tests to make sure all their lorry drivers are fully trained and qualified.'
    This seems different from the 22.12.14 Glasgow case, but perhaps also shows that even twice-yearly health checks aren't enough to prevent unexpected problems, and why vehicles need to have equipment to bring them to a safe stop automatically if they aren't being driven safely.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. acsimpson
    Member

    How would the stopping equipment work? I can't think of a way it could tell if the driver was deliberately driving badly, eg rlj, without it being fully automated.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. Darkerside
    Member

    Agree that the most recent incident is just very bad luck. Anyone can have cardiac issues at any time with no prior history.

    @acsimpson: some kind of dead man's handle, perhaps?

    wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. acsimpson
    Member

    Indeed, it would need to be clever enough to be operated with zero concentration while also not being switched be a slumped drover.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. wee folding bike
    Member

    Trains have a dead man's handle. I don't see most motorists being very keen on the idea.

    Things still go wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorgate_tube_crash

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. neddie
    Member

    Except that there are always at least two people operating a bin lorry. All that needs to happen is that one non-driver needs to be given the ability to stop the vehicle.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. slowcoach
    Member

    "Scotland's most senior law officer will not support a private prosecution of the driver of the Glasgow bin lorry which crashed, killing six people." BBC

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. neddie
    Member

    Again!

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-36066329

    When will the killing end?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. slowcoach
    Member

    Glasgow bin lorry crash prosecution ruled out - BBC

    "Rejecting the appeal for private prosecutions, Lord Justice Clerk Lady Dorrian, along with Lord Menzies and Lord Drummond Young, said the Crown Office had applied the correct test on the legal requirements of charges of dangerous driving."

    Posted 7 years ago #
  27. Min
    Member

    So the System that apparently should have prevented Harry Clarke from driving, prevented him from driving after the bin lorry crash and he still drove anyway.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39006862

    Be interesting to see what the sentence will be.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  28. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    In another jurisdiction:

    "A bus driver who involuntarily retired because it was alleged she could possibly pass out at the wheel due to a health condition wants to be reinstated, the High Court heard."

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/bus-driver-with-fainting-condition-wants-job-back-35536027.html

    Posted 7 years ago #
  29. Min
    Member

    Well Harry Clarke has been banned for three years although that didn't stop him the last time..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39453847

    Posted 7 years ago #

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