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"Executive Director – Place Salary: £145,248"

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "

    We are now recruiting for an Executive Director - Place. The post has responsibility for the development and delivery of a range of front line locality based and city-wide services as well as delivery of the overall strategic objectives of the Council. This is a challenging role and will provide an opportunity to help shape the successful future of Scotland’s capital city.

    Significant experience of leading and managing large scale services (such as travel, transport, roads, planning, housing and environment) is required together with an innovative approach and demonstrable experience of developing and maintaining key strategic relationships with external stakeholders to optimise the delivery of services.

    "

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    .

    http://www.aspenpeople.co.uk/edinburghcouncil/roles.htm

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    Wow - that's more than the First Minister earns!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. Dave
    Member

    Out of interest I just checked what the equivalent staff at our organisation earn - it's roughly 20x more (according to stock exchange documentation in the public domain).

    We often bemoan the ineffectiveness of the council. Is it partly down to a failure to attract the best talent?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. Arellcat
    Moderator

    that's more than the First Minister earns!

    If you knock off £100,000 from that advertised salary, even £45,000 is a hell of a lot more than most people earn working for the public sector.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. amir
    Member

    "We often bemoan the ineffectiveness of the council. Is it partly down to a failure to attract the best talent? "

    I am not sure but the public sector does attract a different sort of person (in a good way).

    The private sector distorts the idea of reward far beyond that of the public sector - I personally am not sure that it's healthy.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. Min
    Member

    Stupidly high pay certainly doesn't seem to make them any less likely to be greedy and corrupt.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Stupidly high pay certainly doesn't seem to make them any less likely to be greedy and corrupt.

    Indeed. Fred Goodwin was a very highly paid man. As is (was) every rate-rigging trader in the City of London. I think there's definitely a big difference in having a talent for earning big money and actually being capable and competent in a given job.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    UK taxpayers could lose £13.5 billion on the Royal Bank of Scotland bailout. That makes the bankers' wages look modest. They're obviously doing a good job.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. Dave
    Member

    I'm not going to try and defend executive pay... but just because we think the private sector pays too well doesn't make it less of a problem (that that qualified applicants would have to take a huge pay cut to go into the public sector).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. In my experience (primarily private sector) high pay does not necessarily equate to capability, and the correlation is overstated (IMO). Some of the most competent, capable and effective individuals I've had the pleasure of working with were very much in the lower end of the pay spectrum, but were essentially too nice.

    The private sector does encourage a different type of mindset, and sometimes (not necessarily all the time) this simply encourages people who are good at 'playing the game'. They can delegate well, they can talk the talk, know the right phrases, dodge bullets. It's a skill, certainly, but doesn't make them 'better'.

    Whereas arguably those who are paid less well in the pubic sector are doing it for other reasons (work/life balance, or because they love what they do, or because the public sector is seen more as a 'helping' sector) which means their focus is less on making money (though business speak is still rife). Arguably (arguably, arguably) having someone who wants to do the actual job makes them more competent despite that lower pay than someone highly paid but just about keeping hold of the greasy pole by having to do all sorts of things outwith their actual job.

    Of course there are high and low paid people in all sectors who are both excellent and useless.

    In short, salary as an indicator of how good someone is at a job? Nonsense.

    Public sector paying more would attract execs from the private sector? I actually seriously doubt it, unless there's a coincidental kudos that also comes from it, which even if highly paid, I doubt the public sector would manage, compared to being able to say you're the chief exec of some sexy company.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I suppose it depends if people are driven solely by the desire to earn very large amounts of money in the public sector or huge amounts in the private sector. Perhaps the differential is a good thing; encourages those driven by more than just financial gain but also by public service.

    I know that's most likely wishful thinking though.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. steveo
    Member

    Has being public spirited and motivated by service rather than huge financial reward make them any better?

    Edinburgh has shown in so many instances that relatively low pay and doing it for one own reasons hasn't attracted competence, trams, statuary notices, transport in general.

    Perhaps trying a ludicrous salary and really holding them to account (unlike banking directors fir example) might be worth a try. I doubt it mind...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "It's a skill, certainly, but doesn't make them 'better'."

    More importantly - from an employer's part of view - does it make the company better - if only in a 'more profitable' sense.

    Might involve keeping the staff happy/motivated rather than scared.

    Could also be important to minimise financial and reputational risks.

    Not just thinking of banking/finance or any particular company...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. PS
    Member

    Whereas arguably those who are paid less well in the pubic sector are doing it for other reasons (work/life balance, or because they love what they do, or because the public sector is seen more as a 'helping' sector) which means their focus is less on making money (though business speak is still rife).

    This applies in the private sector too - a lot of very competent people stay at lower management levels (as opposed to pushing for CEO/partner positions] because they prefer doing the actual work/project delivery, like the work/life balance that gives them and do not want to deal with the corporate management headaches and politics that you tend to get in the upper, highly-paid echelons (and indeed the types of folks whom you tend to meet at those rarefied heights).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. Dave
    Member

    In short, salary as an indicator of how good someone is at a job? Nonsense.

    To think that all this time we've been hiring senior staff at a premium to junior staff... we could have saved a packet if we'd only realised!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Min
    Member

    Indeed you could.

    I noticed an article on the BBC yesterday about how bosses still get given enormous bonuses even when they are rubbish.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32985637

    The excuse, as always is that it is difficult to find the talent etc. They clearly have a different definition of the word "talent" to most normal people

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. amir
    Member

    "The CMI said that companies are finding it increasingly difficult to find, recruit and hold on to staff. And it is this skills shortage that could be forcing up wages and bonuses, economists believe."

    Mmm

    Posted 10 years ago #
  18. Dave, a salary as an indicator to how good someone is at a job is nonsense, you've gone all apple and pears. Just because it's not an indicator doesn't mean in your organisation that the wrong people have been put into those senior, more highly paid, positions.

    But as a general statement 'if you're highly paid then you must be brilliant' is nonsense.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. Morningsider
    Member

    In my experience of professional life, most people could easily work in higher managerial roles to the standard of the people currently in post. The fact they don't may simply be down to the job never becoming available, choice, bad luck, lack of contacts, a face that doesn't fit and so on.

    The alternative is that these senior managers only employ complete incompetents who are incapable of learning new skills.

    There are only a limited number of senior posts. Not everyone capable of doing them is going to get one of these scarce jobs.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. Dave
    Member

    I noticed an article on the BBC yesterday about how bosses still get given enormous bonuses even when they are rubbish.

    With us, your pay consists of two parts, a fixed salary and a results-dependent bit ("bonus") which combined in theory make a competitive package versus A.N.Other company.

    If I appraised someone as under-performing I would still generally expect to give them some of their results-dependent pay. Otherwise, someone who has a target to sell 500 cars but only sells 499 would get the same pay as someone who sold only 50 cars - as both "under performed" and lost their bonus?

    * we don't actually sell cars.

    The article carefully doesn't say what the difference is between under-performing and over-performing managers' pay.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Isn't salary driven by market, rather than personal attributes?

    The £145K Executive Director will attract a person of 'International bla bla status', in the same manor as a CIO of a private company.

    I suspect that private, and public sector pay is fairly similar in scale and aligned the 'market value' of specific roles, until you get to senior level where public sector pay is capped.

    A 'jobbing' joiner, or IT professional, or accountant will earn roughly similar salaries in either domain...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. newtoit
    Member

    Remuneration should be commensurate with the knowledge, skill and level of experience required (and delivered). Those criteria determine the scarcity of alternative candidates, and therefore the difficulty of replacing an incumbent. The more difficult to replace someone is, the more they would get paid to try and stop them leaving.

    Now, that is the theory but in practice that's not always the case. Plenty of people leave to go into jobs with lower pay but have a better quality of life, shorter commute, better company culture etc etc.

    However another factor has to be accountability. As a junior member of staff you have less accountability than as a director etc. They ultimately take responsibility at a much higher level and should carry the can for failure. As a result of the responsibility and accountability that goes with it there is a higher level of risk to the individual's circumstances so it follows that higher pay is required. The issue seems to be that the accountability often just is not there.

    Salary as an indication of ability? To an extent, yes. But also as an indication of political savvy, networking, bullshutting, negotiating ability and of course, experience. Remember some people don't necessarily want to climb the ladder, for example somebody at a legal firm may just want to be a good property lawyer, but not be a good salesperson. They therefore may not climb the latter to the top echelons despite being a very good lawyer. They may not get the megabucks for bringing in business, but they are doing something they are good at and enjoy.

    In terms of public v private sector, it's very hard to compare. It would be very clichéd to say they attract a different sort of person, but in my experience you do encounter differences although the same is true even within the private sector. The argument could be made that a council executive has much less accountability than, say, a director of a FTSE 100 bank. Also there is the case that a public body is likely to want somebody with public sector knowledge, who is well versed in the ways of the council - they would promote within. Therefore it is known what would be a reasonable expectation to get the (possibly already decided) candidate they want. Whereas a large company trying to attract somebody with good knowledge of international cooperation, regulation etc will be coming from a global marketplace with more competition.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. newtoit
    Member

    Damn I wrote far too much.

    TLDR
    A combination of what Baldcyclist and Dave said.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. PS
    Member

    There are only a limited number of senior posts. Not everyone capable of doing them is going to get one of these scarce jobs

    Or want one of them.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. Min
    Member

    There are only a limited number of senior posts. Not everyone capable of doing them is going to get one of these scarce jobs.

    And yet the claim is that there are so few suitable applicants that they have to pay massive salaries and bonuses just to get anyone, whether capable or not.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    f I appraised someone as under-performing I would still generally expect to give them some of their results-dependent pay. Otherwise, someone who has a target to sell 500 cars but only sells 499 would get the same pay as someone who sold only 50 cars - as both "under performed" and lost their bonus?

    The way it works in out non-car selling company (at my middlingly-lowly grade anyway) is that you don't even get considered for any results-driven pay until you have exceeded all results targets, so the 499-car seller and the 50-car seller get the same. If you make it to 501 cars you might get considered for something at which point they tell you there's not much to go around but thanks for the effort.

    So you can try hard, meet and/or exceed your performance targets and still end up getting the same at the end of the day as the free-wheeler at the other end of the bank of desks who does the absolute bare minimum to ensure they don't get the sack.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. newtoit
    Member

    @Kaputnik:
    "The way it works in out non-car selling company (at my middlingly-lowly grade anyway) is that you don't even get considered for any results-driven pay until you have exceeded all results targets, so the 499-car seller and the 50-car seller get the same. If you make it to 501 cars you might get considered for something at which point they tell you there's not much to go around but thanks for the effort."

    Wow, do we work in the same place?!

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. amir
    Member

    Following on from Baldcyclist and newtoit, with regard to markets (which don't always/usually work perfectly), it's a little complex. It not only depends on the number of people "able" and willing to do a role, but the ability and willingness of the employer to pay rates. There is a strong degree of interdependency of course. That's why footballers and bankers get paid so much compared to say top doctors or scientists.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Greenroofer
    Member

    @newtoit whether or not you work in the same company as kaputnik, I bet that you,him and me all find that the place we work is very similar to where Dilbert works. All big companies are the same and Dilbert has them nailed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin


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