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Things that might change (cycling) behaviour

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    There's an increasing amount of concern on various threads about 'inconsiderate cycling', 'excessive speeds' etc.

    Obviously different people (on here and elsewhere) have contrasting views about 'what is reasonable' and also what 'needs to be done'.

    'We' often think some things are 'wrong' (or at best misguided) - things like chicanes and tactiles.

    The council is contemplating 'signage' and 'awareness campaigns' but clearly knows there are no simple answers!

    There will be meetings and consultations and recommendations and presumably action(s).

    I'm sure 'we' won't come up with 'the perfect solution that no-one has thought of', but I think things are worth discussing.

    Over many years attitudes have been changed - seatbelts, drink driving, smoking, dog fouling.

    All have involved laws and enforcement.

    Is that the only way?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. PS
    Member

    Can't see law-making working. Nor signage.

    Beyond national service/mandatory watching of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure in order to generate wholescale changes in public attitude and behaviour, the best thing you could do is provide properly segregated cycling infrastructure to reduce points of conflict...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. SRD
    Moderator

    i'd quite like one of those ad series where they show pics of ordinary looking people e.g. firemen, nurses etc as 'cyclists'.

    not saying it would transform anything, but it might make people think.

    oh, sorry, you mean change attitudes of cyclists. hmmmmmmm....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. minus six
    Member

    Official recognition of the term "bicycle traffic" and the infrastructure required to support it.

    Until then, its going to be the same old patronising tropes.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. Morningsider
    Member

    Law making and enforcement are probably non-starters. It is worth making drink driving etc. an offence, and policing it accordingly, as the results can be so dramatic.

    Making it an offence to be a douche while riding a bike would cost just as much to police as drink driving, but for almost no benefit to the wider public.

    What would work? I don't know - although I like PS's idea of engineering out conflict.

    I don't think we should beat ourselves up over the behaviour of a few idiots on bikes. I can live with signage and awareness campaigns - as long as they don't take money from infrastructure projects or the like.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. fimm
    Member

    How do they manage in the Netherlands? In Copenhagen? Even in London? )I've seen video clips of pretty heavy cycle traffic there.) Is it less of a problem because speeds are lower and there's a generally less aggressive road culture? (If you are used to sitting fast and light to road behaviour in a car then why would you be different on a bike?) Would more female cyclists help? Why is it a problem?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. paddyirish
    Member

    I saw a lot of cycling in Amsterdam in February and very little of it was on cycle paths, but more quiet and busy streets.

    I thought quite a bit of the cycling would have had the EEN frothing at the mouth - high speed (higher than on Edinburgh's streets for sure), texting, red light jumping and near misses). Everyone (cars, trams, bikes and pedestrians) just seemed confident in themselves and each other and trusted that everyone would do what it took to avoid a crash. No horns, no raised voices and most folk on bikes looked great. Pedestrians stuck to one side of the road/path rather than walking down the middle arms swinging, allowing room for a wide pass.

    I think it is down to critical mass and a belief that everyone had the right to be there. It would be great if Edinburgh got there, but it doesn't feel like it is anywhere near.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "Why is it a problem?"

    Good question...

    The main problem (apart from the very sensible pointing-outs about better infrastructure!) is that some people who happen to be riding bikes are doing things that 'most' people could describe as "anti-social".

    Whether such people are 'unaware', 'uncaring' or just think 'I can, because there's nothing to stop me' is unknown.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. fimm
    Member

    Not my video (obviously) but:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Video

    Good cycling? Bad cycling? Too much cycling?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. PS
    Member

    Good cycling? Bad cycling?

    A few examples of both, but with those numbers it must be quite intimidating being a driver.

    So intimidating, in fact, that I think I'd want those cyclists stuck on a segregated facility for my own piece of mind.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. unhurt
    Member

    mandatory watching of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure in order to generate wholescale changes in public attitude and behaviour

    I think this is probably the solution to a lot of social ills.

    Meanwhile, I do tend to feel like a generally agressive road culture will inevitably be carried over onto shared use paths etc. - in fact, I wonder if the feeling of having the "upper hand" for a change is a subconscious factor in some cases...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. acsimpson
    Member

    Certainly bad driving by the construction truck at the end who can't get round the corner without going into the bus lane.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "Incidentally we still have loads of copies of the 2012 printed "topics-based" flyer if anyone could use some!"

    http://www.citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14901#post-190305

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. Nelly
    Member

    I might be going a bit off piste here but.........

    With the cycling 'infrastructure' we presently have, it is no surprise to me that conflict war stories emerge from the EEN and others.

    I rarely use the canal, but I will wager that the summer is annoying for regular cycle and pedestrian commuters, given the increase in bikes and bodies on that (in places) tight path.

    I am not 'blaming' anyone here, just stating the obvious - if a path / road / track becomes popular, it becomes busy, and when something becomes busy, conflict is all but inevitable.

    People use paths as roads can be dangerous - If CEC is serious about increasing cycle / ped traffic, then it needs to seriously invest in infra, including closing key roads to all but bike and pedestrians - not get all excited about a 20 yard stretch of poorly laid tarmac next to the meadows.

    Bike and ped infra wont work if they simply put a few stretches in 'strategically important' spots.

    I will know we can stop whingeing if my son can safely go the half mile from my house to Sciennes PS on his own, by bike - and this aint going to happen while he is there.

    Until then, kids will cycle on pavements because the roads are too dangerous, and seasonal cyclists will continue to use paths as the roads scare them.

    As to stupid cyclists going too fast on paths?

    Well I was turning right into Napier road yesterday at about 6.45 am and was almost taken out by a car doing 50-60mph coming up colinton road, had I been a kid or less observant?.....not a nice thought.

    So, while the occasional 'speeding bike hit my child' (or worse, as evidenced by the Livingston accident) story gets headlines, bikes and people are rarely the problem.

    The problem is the city which is presently designed round the car.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    And related slides

    Full presentation.

    Full conference -

    http://www.cyclingcultures.org.uk/cyclingandsociety.html

    Other (annual) conferences -

    http://www.cyclingandsociety.org/?page_id=49

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. gibbo
    Member

    I remember reading something by Bella Bathurst that suggested the reason the UK has agressive cyclists is because the lack of infrastructure means:

    (A) cycling is stressful, and that results in raised testosterone etc

    (B) cyclists have to fight for position, so aggression is pretty much necessary.

    And, of course, if you're used to cycling agressively, it can be hard to turn it off.

    Cyclists in Netherlands/Denmark have proper infrastructure that allows them to get from A to B without conflict or danger. So they learn to cycle in a relaxed manner.

    (I'm paraphrasing her argument as it's a couple of years since I read her book. Apologies for any unintentional misrepresentation.)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. Greenroofer
    Member

    Two similar environments: road traffic in Marrakesh and trolley traffic in Tesco on a Saturday. Both very busy and very slow. No apparent rules, no sense of some people having 'priority'. Everyone just has to rub along, negotiate and work around everyone else. When the towpath (or other infrastructure) is really busy it works in the same way: you just can't be a racing turnip because you can't get the speed up.

    When the towpath is truly empty, you can zoom along and not be a turnip.

    When it's a not empty but not full, you have conflict because it's possible to be a racing turnip and you don't have to negotiate with the other path users: you can just bomb past them giving them a fright.

    I suggest that this applies to all modes of transport and all infrastructure: roads, segregated cycle tracks, shared paths and pavements. There's always an opportunity when they aren't empty and aren't jammed for people to be turnips. You can't legislate against people being turnips: some people just are, and they exhibit their turnipitude in whatever means of transport they are using.

    However the impact of their turnipitude increases in proportion to their weight and the square of their velocity, so it's the turnips in motor vehicles (and fast fat cyclists) that we need to worry about the most.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "You can't legislate against people being turnips: some people just are, and they exhibit their turnipitude in whatever means of transport they are using."

    I think that's fair comment, in any case legislation without enforcement is probably futile!

    CEC is due to spend quite a lot of money on 'promoting' the 20mph rollout - basically persuading people to like/obey the new rules, conscious that there won't be much police enforcement.

    Perhaps there could be a wider campaign 'suggesting' that roads *will* become safer for cyclists - perhaps encouraging them away from speeding along off-road paths(?)

    Of course things would be simpler if CEC hadn't reduced some 'protection' by abandoning the all-day bus lanes.

    Generally needs a more holistic approach that's more obviously about people rather than types of transport.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    Edinburgh 2030??

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Copenhagen is famous as a cycling city. How did its city council create this world-renowned cycling culture? By making cycling the easiest option.

    "

    http://www.theeuropean-magazine.com/klaus-bondam/10199-the-danish-cycling-experience

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

  23. Min
    Member

    Agreeing with a number of posts already - there was a thread recently on an article (can't remember which, sorry) and one line summed it up. Cities get the cyclists they deserve. Make cycling less of a death race and the kamikaze's will get bored and take up base jumping or whatever instead.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. Stickman
    Member

    Min: this was the thread:

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14740#post-187154

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. Nelly
    Member

    "Cities get the cyclists they deserve"

    .....is what I was saying earlier.

    And frankly, if infra stays as per, then I won't stop abusing people who drive 1.5 tons of metal at me.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. Min
    Member

    Thanks Stickman. I will bookmark that as I am very likely to cite it again.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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