CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Fantasy Infrastructure

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  1. ih
    Member

    I've been looking for a link to post a 'pie in the sky' thought and twq's question on cross town travel gets near: http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15352#post-196991

    If the Scotland St tunnel were to be opened as far as St Andrew Sq, (I know it's blocked further on) and a large lift were installed to get people and bikes between the tunnel and the square, it would have so many benefits linking the centre of town for pedestrians and cyclists with a huge swathe of N Edinburgh and Leith.

    With some careful thought about George Street and the new St James quarter, there could be onward links to the west end, and south to the Bridges.

    I can't see a downside, and all recent reports say the tunnel is sound. Presumably it could be brought into use like Rodney St tunnel was.

    Even Essential Edinburgh must see how opening up their area to convenient access for active travel from the north would be a good thing.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. wingpig
    Member

    A large lift and a wide-radius gently-sloping helical ramp. With decent connections to the south, too.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. cc
    Member

    Cool idea. But not just a lift - let's add a large ramp which spirals round St Andrew Square, going downwards into the ground, taking you down into the tunnel.

    Edit: snap!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. cb
    Member

    This is quite a good Scotland St Tunnel thread. See the PDF linked in laidback's post for the impracticalities (impossibilities) in reopening the tunnel.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. ih
    Member

    Hi @cb I can't open lb's link, but I've read it before and from memory, the difficulty/impossibility refers to opening the tunnel all the way to Waverley. I'm suggesting opening just to St Andrew Sq and having lift access up and down from there. Imagine what additional active travel options and connections it would offer, including public transport links to the tram and a short downhill walk to Waverley as well.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. paulmilne
    Member

    Would it be more expensive or technically difficult to build proper segregated bike paths on the surface? Seems like a bit of overkill for a problem with a recognised solution.

    But fun to think about!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. ih
    Member

    Would it be more expensive or technically difficult to build proper segregated bike paths on the surface? Seems like a bit of overkill for a problem with a recognised solution.

    Hi @Paulmilne What's the 'proper segregated bike path on the surface' of which you speak? I'm simply talking of a continuation of the path from the Rodney St tunnel up through the Scotland St tunnel - wouldn't be any different from that path (or the Innocent tunnel). And what's the 'recognised solution'? What's the 'problem' come to that? This is an opportunity not a problem!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. ih
    Member

    Hi again @paulmilne I've reread your post and I realise that you meant the recognised solution would be surface segregated tracks along the existing NCR 75, down Dublin St and then Drummond Pl and Scotland St. Well, yes, I'm all for good protected routes on a proper network. But 2 buts.

    The lesser 'but' is that this section of 75 is an absolute dog of a route. It's probably the steepest frequently used road in Edinburgh and the setts on Drummond Pl and Scotland St are bone and bearing shaking. It is never going to attract any newcomers to cycling.

    The greater 'but' is that I'm thinking a bit wider than a cycle route. The cyclist or pedestrian is faced with imposing obstacles when trying to get to George St (or Princes St or anywhere else) from the north. This tunnel would provide a smooth, safe, direct and quite easy way for cyclists and pedestrians to reach most of the New Town from a very wide area of N Edinburgh.

    I accept that it would not be cheap, but I'm sure that Rodney St wasn't cheap either and that only provides a short (albeit, pleasant) extension to the existing path that stopped at Broughton Road. A car free route via the tunnel and lift to the very centre of the New Town would transform active travel.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. neddie
    Member

    If the Scotland St tunnel were opened as far as the northern side of St Andrews Sq., that would make it approx 650m long.

    Which would also be on a par with the innocent tunnel at 517m.

    So it seems like it should be technically feasible.

    Half of the road at North St Andrews Sq. could be closed to create a long ramp down, starting from the western side of the square and entering the tunnel under the tram tracks on the eastern side.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. wingpig
    Member

    Wonder how deep below Drummond Place it is? Scotland Tunnel could have a wee half-way vent there, to get some air in and provide an additional ingress/escape ramp leading up to the gardens.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. ih
    Member

    Well! I hadn't wanted to throw too many possibilities into the mix, but an intermediate access point at Drummond Pl had occurred to me. Initial thoughts are that the denizens of Drummond would not look on this too kindly, but I think it could be sold to them as their own almost private access to the city and the pedestrian network northwards.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. neddie
    Member

    The northern side of St Andrews Sq is about 110m long and the tunnel is about 88ft deep at that point (27m).

    So the ramp would have to double back on itself, making it 220m long for 27m height gain, giving a gradient of 1:8

    Hmmmm... Might need to think again on that one

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. neddie
    Member

    On the south side of Drummond Place was the most northerly shaft, just 39 feet deep

    http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/gallery/scotlandstreet.html

    Might be more practical to 'get out' there. Only 12m of vertical ascent!

    Updated link to the Spurtle pdf:
    http://www.broughtonspurtle.org.uk/sites/broughtonspurtle.org.uk/files/story/sst_conservation_statement.pdf

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. ih
    Member

    The depth at St Andrew Sq is the reason I feel a lift would be a suitable method to access the tunnel. Also I think the surface infrastructure would be less obtrusive for a lift.

    The tunnel isn't very deep at Drummond Pl though.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. wingpig
    Member

    "The northern side of St Andrews Sq is about 110m long and the tunnel is about 88ft deep at that point (27m)."

    The northern side of St Andrew Square is about 15m wide (leaving a bit for a footway), allowing a helical path with eight revolutions (gaining 3.375m per revolution and allowing a reasonable combination of ceiling-height and platform-depth) to have a gradient of 1:8.3 on the middle of the inner 2m-wide path (best make that the downhill side) and 1:12.1 in the middle of the outer (uphill) path. Could make it racetrack-shaped to extend the length, then lessen the slope on the corners. Or have two 15-radius helices, one for up and one for down, with a big glass lift in the middle of one and a spiral staircase for pedestrians in the middle of the other.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Interestingly, according to Nick Catford the roof of the tunnel lies 49 feet below St Andrew Street (north? south) and 37 feet at Princes St. Referring to the sectional drawing on Canmore, by my calculations the tunnel roof lies about 18 feet below Drummond Place.

    The tunnel bore is 24 feet high.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. neddie
    Member

    Or, uphill could be a central helical path, with the downhill route using the walls of the shaft itself.

    Downhill cyclists would have to build up enough speed that their centrifugal motion overcomes the forces of gravity. They would do this by following a painted path into and around the inside of the shaft (painted in invisible red chips, with a few parked car sculptures bolted on to add to the realism, naturally)

    A veritable wall of death... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_death

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. wingpig
    Member

    Perhaps something like a combination of the footways around the inside of the Reichstag's dome and the double-helical staircase in chateau Chambord.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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