CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"We need to talk about skirts"
(22 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
-
the issue is not skirts. the issue is people
Posted 8 years ago # -
Sounds like some people with one Y chromosome and one Xchromosome though in first guy's defence, that could just be banter?
Maybe should also mention XY chromosome person in a skirt?
Posted 8 years ago # -
"that could just be banter"
That's what they all say.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Never having been inclined to try in my kilt but I guess it makes a massive difference how the bike is designed whether skirts feel right. I have a Dutch acquaintance with a proper Dutch bike and he rides so straight and upright on it, compared to me on my road-adapted track bike. (It doesn't hurt that he's massive and his bike is massive, so it appears he is riding a horse when seen from a distance.)
Disgusted at what some people say though.
Posted 8 years ago # -
If one person thinks it's OK to say that aloud to a woman, you can be sure that there at least 100 others thinking the same thing when they see a woman cycling in a skirt. The discourse we have in society around public ownership of women's bodies and what they put on them is overwhelming to most people - honorable exceptions being the present company of course.
I know that every time I get on a bike I am getting judged by what I am wearing by people in cars and on bikes. I know because of the way they act around me - cyclists will put themselves in front of me when at stop lights because they assume I'll be slow. I think also drivers think I'm an inexperienced cyclist and can be more wary around me than if I am kitted out in lycra and standard issue flourescent jacket. Frankly I've started to embrace that and use it to my advantage - anything that gets me noticed by someone driving a car near me is a bonus. And if I look bonkers/unprepared/not serious enough, so be it.
Posted 8 years ago # -
There was a nice article on the BBC about this, not specifically but about a woman who wrote a letter to a man who was shouting at her from his van as she was running and it went viral. Being shouted at/commented on by lower forms of the male species is another thing that puts women off being active.
Posted 8 years ago # -
The male gaze and how it objectifies women is universal. It is removed temporarily by the necking of an eccy. (Pure MDMA was used in therapeutic circles in lalaland before crossing over to the dance floor).
Agreed one guy expressed that it was not skirt wearing weather wrong and agreed 100 more thought it but did not say it
Best not to think this way. One stage on that journey is to not express something you are thinking.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Never having been inclined to try [cycling] in my kilt
I've tried it in the depths of winter, which is kilt wearing weather given it was Burns night.
On a Brompton it was easy and comfortable - modesty maintained by a combination of sitting on the kilt and having a sporran.
Without knowing the details, I'd put the original down to a failed attempt at conversation - unfortunately I suspect many (all?) of us (male and female) can be reduced to incoherent teenagers in the presence of beautiful people.
Robert
Posted 8 years ago # -
Is it inappropriate to say "Not exactly shorts weather" too? (Or at least, you could say that to a guy, but not if you're cycling in mixed company?)
I rarely speak to people on my commute incidentally, but I think I probably have expressed amazement at bare-handedness a few times (when it feels like -50 in my ski gloves). Seems like I better watch it!
Posted 8 years ago # -
I think the difference between "Not exactly skirt weather" and "Not exactly shorts weather" comes down to history and social norms and so on. To use terminology oft-employed around cycling, in our society women are the 'out group', and have been for many many years. Now the comment may have been a perfectly innocent one, the guy may not have been judging her on what she was wearing, may not have been eyeing up her legs, may have used the 'shorts' query if it had been a bloke he'd seen. But there's that weight of history that makes it all a bit of a minefield that leads to approaching things in the way gembo says - sometimes it's best not to express your thoughts.
It's a bit like that recent LinkedIn case where a woman had a picture of her on LinkedIn, looking attractive, and a bloke commented on that. He was castigated for being sexist. At first I couldn't really see what the issue was - after all she'd chosen to put up a picture of her looking good. Then I started thinking, 'well of course she did, everyone does, you're not going to put up something of you looking terrible are you?', and it was doubtful the guy would have commented on a bloke's picture saying he looked hot. There were, of course, those who suggested that if she didn't want 'attention', she should have used a less flattering image, but that's victim blaming straight up. It's like the hassidic Jews in New York who complained about the bike paths through 'their' area, and women were cycling by in shorts and skirts and tight clothing - they genuinely seemed to believe that if men couldn't control themselves then it was the fault of the women, not of those men.
Context is everything. The C4 news reporter who commented that Obama's smile was like a split watermelon wouldn't have garnered any of the attention if it was used as an expression about a white British man.
If you're good friends with a female cyclist who you see in a skirt, then it's 'probably' okay to comment on it not being skirt weather. Especially so if you've had conversations about cycling in skirts in the past.
It's a ridiculously difficult area, and one which I've been guilty of getting completely wrong in the past. But reading more and more about 'everyday sexism' and seeing, often first hand, what women have to put up with in subtle ways that build up day after day, week after week, it's eye opening. Just watch the BBC news and work out the average ages of the female versus male presenters; SKY Sports is insane with its greying old muppets and ex players presenting alongside homogenised images of Nuts-reader perfection; and then there are the podium girls at bike races (which still brings me out in a cold sweat as to how wrong I got that a couple of years back on here and almost completely burned my bridges), even including a line-up of girls in bikinis in front of the podium for a women's race recently (lots of Twitter traffic on that); and any political/regal/person of note appearing in the public, if they're female the focus of the media will be on what they're wearing, something which probably never once happened with a bloke until Jeremy Corbyn shuffled onto the scene.
Long-winded way of saying that while something may be intended innocently, it can, depending on the context and the relationship and the way it's said and by whom, still very definitely be sexist, and not be voiced.
(I don't tend to speak to people on my commute either, but that's cos I'm an anti-social miserable sod).
p.s. commenting on gloves (or lack thereof), non-gender specific, probably fine. However, if your comment is 'this cold will crack your nail varnish love', that's probably not fine.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Does Eddie Izzard cycle without gloves?
(Might be preferable not to call him love...)
Posted 8 years ago # -
Wilmington's Cow's excellent post says everything much better than I can so I will just add a +1 to that.
A female friend once commented on the fact that she'd seen me cycling in a skirt in what she thought was unsuitable weather. This in spite of the fact that she does cycle sometimes and she does wear skirts (not all women do, these days).
You don't get very cold from the knee down, apart from the feet, in my experience, especially with even thin tights on (thin tights are quite a lot warmer than they look). If it is really cold then I'll wear socks over my tights and remove them when I get to the office.
Some men wear shorts in weather that I think is far too cold for shorts!
Posted 8 years ago # -
'context is everything'.
"richardmoore73: Very good by Lizzie Armitstead. A victory for shorts not all the way down to the knees #Richmond2015"
I was really unimpressed that Richard Moore's first tweet in response to Lizzie Armistead's magnificent ride at the World Championships implied she won because she was wearing short shorts. To be fair, he has a thing about long shorts for both men and women, and has apparently also commented on Tommy Voekler wearing short shorts too. But everyone else was tweeting about her skills and strength and strategy and what not, and here's this bloke being jokey about her shorts. I don't think I'd have had an issue if he'd said 'what a fabulous ride' and then in a second tweet said 'see, short shorts are faster' or whatever ever. But the context of (a) the first thing he thought of as she won was her shorts' and (b) turning her fabulous achievement into a joke really pissed me off.
Obviously, the 10 RTs and 42 faves suggest others agree with him - I have not looked to see if they were all men....
Posted 8 years ago # -
A friend in London has fine taste in colourful print full knee-ish length skirts which she rides in regularly. They hang nicely in the gentle wind as she rides and the sight is most pleasing to the eye. So I make sure I ride a bit slower rather than my usual speed to avoid overtaking ....
Posted 8 years ago # -
I've been examining my prejudices all the way home tonight...
A woman in jeans and t-shirt, with a small rucksack appeared in front of me on the towpath this evening. She was on an orange mountain bike with knobbly tyres. The saddle looked a bit low. She had canvas espadrille-type shoes on, and was pedalling with her insteps rather than the balls of her feet.
I noted her appearance and began to look for safe opportunities to overtake...
...except she started accelerating, and carried on accelerating, and carried on until she was doing nearly 20mph. She slowed down in all the right places, but just kept putting the power down from Wester Hailes to Slateford. It wasn't dangerous, it was just very fast for someone on a bike with the saddle too low and pedalling in espadrilles.
As I made my way home after that I pondered the question of how much of my underestimation of her was due to me thinking 'slow female cyclist' compared to just 'slow cyclist' when I first saw her, and what that says about me and my prejudices.
Dunno the answer, but I did tell the story to the family this evening and remind them never to judge a book by its cover.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"me thinking 'slow female cyclist' "
Many years ago I was significantly outpaced on Princes Street by a women on a 3 speed.
It really wasn't the "woman" bit that amazed me, but the fact that she was riding something significantly heavier and with fewer gears!
Posted 8 years ago # -
Thank you for all these brilliant responses. A shout to @Greenroofer for taking a moment to examine prejudices and share after.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Three years ago some colleagues and I were undertaking a charity ride from Edinburgh to Brighton. On our leg into London we were climbing a fairly steady incline on a straight road. Picture 5 guys aged between 35-45, lycra clad all on carbon racing machines in a very efficient line keeping a steady pace up the climb. Our jaws suddenly dropped and we looked in amazement as we were passed and completely dropped by a young woman riding a pashley upright, long skirt flowing, basket on the front with, I kid you not, the proverbial long baton of bread sticking out.
Needless to say that in order to protect our bruised egos, we all agreed it was only because we'd ridden some 400 miles over the previous days! Definitely one of my favourite stories from that trip!
Posted 8 years ago # -
You don't know what sort of athlete is hidden under the pretty skirt and nice bike...
(I read a story on another forum a while ago from a man who'd got into a bit of SCR (silly commuter racing) with another man on a Brompton. Brompton rider proved rather speedier than our poster expected - however when they were both stopped at traffic lights the teller of the tale noticed that the Brompton rider had powerful-looking and (the real give-away) shaved calves... "I'm guessing that isn't your only bike..." he said...)
Posted 8 years ago # -
I've always thought it would make a fun hidden camera video to take Victoria Pendleton or Nicole Cook or Lizzie Armitstead, disguise them, put them on a seemingly slow bike, and bung them out into the commuter race. I could see some testosterone taking a battering...
Posted 8 years ago # -
You don't know what sort of athlete is hidden under the pretty skirt and nice bike...
One morning climbing up Glentress, having already been passed by a chap on a unicycle, we looked behind to see a little girl with streamers on her handlebars approaching quickly. Her dad saved our blushes when he told her not get too far in front.
Its all about power to weight we kept telling ourselves....
Posted 8 years ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.
posts
