CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Not sport - Transport

(41 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by paulmilne
  • Latest reply from Arellcat

12

  1. paulmilne
    Member

    Just read this article about the lack of transport, as opposed to sporty, bikes in retail in Vancouver. An interesting read:

    "Lack of transport retailers a barrier to everyday biking in Vancouver"
    http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/09/lack-of-transport-retailers-a-barrier-to-everyday-biking-in-vancouver/

    This strikes a chord with me. I ordered a Dutch bike online last Christmas, so didn't have a chance to test drive it, and after riding it for nearly a year I realise I probably wouldn't have bought this particular model if I had given it a test ride, for a variety of reasons I won't go into here.

    Anyway, I think with a bit more research I might have found something closer to home, but am interested in the opinions of others here. Are there retail outlets in Edinburgh and environs for an affordable (£300-£400) everyday bicycle?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. ARobComp
    Member

    Edinburgh Bike Coop have a range of stouter bikes for about that range that could be considered "transport" bicycles. As do Evans.

    Most of the second hand shops tend to have at least a few sit-up bikes I'd say.

    Sub £100 there are plenty of bikes that will get you places from bike station/gumtree.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    It always surprises me (still) how many bikes are in shops without mudguards.

    To some extent it's an 'optional extra' with a chance for retailers to make a bit more money.

    But, I suspect, 'most people' just want to buy a bike that they like the look of, is in their price range and will do what they want it to do.

    If they really want a serious off-road bike for getting muddy or the most stripped down road racer, fine - but I think more people want something off the floor they don't have to think about getting wet clothes if it rains a bit.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. steveo
    Member

    Laidback has a couple of Dutch type bikes too.

    I can't imagine any retailer is going to start selling bikes that (probably) won't sell just to try and drive a culture shift. Retailers respond, usually increasingly slowly as the size of the company increases (Kodak etc), to the market demands. If there was demand for proper commuter bikes, as described in the article, someone would be selling them.

    EBC has a few but mostly sells off road bikes or sports bikes because that's what most people want to ride (or put on top of their Audis). If EBC seen a big uptick in "Dutch" bikes you can bet they'd start stocking a wider selection to capitalise.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. earthowned
    Member

    Decathalon have a range of modestly priced city bikes(with fitted racks/guards) as well as the usual road/mtb.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    That said, all my bikes are 'transport'. Some have mudguards some don't. I try to make sure that if it's going to rain I'm out on a bike with mudguards.

    Short term (even a couple of hours) weather forecasting has been so bad this year I've got wet a few times!

    I like hub dynamos, but since the introduction and rapid development of LEDs I no longer bother and wouldn't seek out a 'fully equipped' bike.

    I now have a bike with front and rear racks that both take full sized panniers and a 'new' lightweight racer.

    But then I'm not really the average/normal bike user/customer that shops want to attract.

    BUT I'm not a 'mountain biker' or an audaxer/sportifer, most days I do 5-10 miles around town. Just like 'most' people would if they actually thought it was 'safe' to do.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. wingpig
    Member

    EBC's practical range is trapped in the catalogue, internet or downstairs - I've only noticed their window-display or upstairs-stand bikes being some form of fairy-whisker roadie thing. BikeTrax usually have at least one noticeably purposeful transport-thing in their window. Evans did have a couple of pseudo-classical uprighty-basketed things in their window at least once, but they are they type that are noticeably styled to look like they're meant to be practical. It's mostly Soul, Eastside and the Bike Station which have prominent just-normal-bikes like I had when I was small.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I guess the issue is simply one of 'market', shops are not going to stock stuff they can't sell.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. wingpig
    Member

    Plenty of clothing-shops are happy enough to stuff their windows with scarves and coats and hats and boots during the autumn and winter. Analogously, bike shops ought to be more comfortable putting comfortable fully-clothed bikes in their windows alongside buffs, anoraks, boots and those things which go round your forehead and have wee protrusions for the bottoms of the ears.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "guess the issue is simply one of 'market', shops are not going to stock stuff they can't sell."

    Yes, but.

    People also buy what they are told/expected to buy, so it's all a bit self reinforcing.

    Plus it's also down to staff. They may like selling the sort of thing they ride or they may take the time and trouble to find out what the customer really wants (particularly difficult if they have pre-conceived ideas due to talking to others/reading all the cycle mags!)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. neddie
    Member

    Where can I get a Batavus Favoriet?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. steveo
    Member

    Maybe the Dutch bike firms should do a big marketing push and tell people what they want, works for Apple.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. fimm
    Member

    " BikeTrax usually have at least one noticeably purposeful transport-thing in their window."
    I think that's unfair to BikeTrax - unless you are not including folders as noticeably purposeful transport-things... My Brompton is the only bike I own that has mudguards, and is indeed the bike I use as a transport-thing.

    (I do want to get mudguards for the road bike. The other bike is definitely a fair weather creature...)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. steveo
    Member

    Where can I get a Batavus Favoriet?

    eMail Batavus and ask why they have no retailers in Edinburgh. There is a simple reason you'll never have to ask where I can buy a Specialized or a Canondale. If EBC went bust tomorrow the importers of Spec or 'Dale would have a sales rep in all the other bike shops by Friday asking who wants to stock them.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. weezee
    Member

    I ended up going to York to buy my Dutch bike last year as I was looking for more than 5 gears in an internal hub. Apart from Laidback bikes, there was no one else who was catering to my needs i.e. I didn't want to drop £600+ on a Pashley in pretty 'patriotic' colours from Bike Coop. I have been struck how some cities seem to have more of a Dutch/utility bike culture - Dublin is crawling with a variety of beaten up Dutch bikes. There are shops there which refub, build and import that style of bike and once they are out in the wild, people try them and see the benefits. Also bike schemes help shift perceptions about what a transport bike should be like. I would love to see more options in Edinburgh for bike buyers. Even in the bike coop or Evans you have to walk past a lot of sporty stuff to get to anything transport-y.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. wingpig
    Member

    " BikeTrax usually have at least one noticeably purposeful transport-thing in their window."
    I think that's unfair to BikeTrax - unless you are not including folders as noticeably purposeful transport-things... My Brompton is the only bike I own that has mudguards, and is indeed the bike I use as a transport-thing.

    You'll have to explain how you think I'm being unfair to BikeTrax.
    Folders are not usually fairy-whisker roadie things, so are noticeably purposeful transport-things. Even one of the racier Airnimals would be more practical than a fairy-whisker roadie thing, due to its transportability.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. fimm
    Member

    @wingpig I thought you were referring to the full-sized-wheeled things that live in the window, some of which would also fit your description as "noticeably purposeful transport-thing". I've no idea why I thought you were dissing folders!
    My apologies.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    In fairness I used my non-mudguarded, non-racked, non-upright, lightishweight, non-dynamo-lighted, drop-barred, cross bike for transport last night.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. steveo
    Member

    My non-mudguarded, non-racked, non-upright, lightishweight, non-dynamo-lighted, drop-barred, racing bike has been primarily transport with occasional "sport" outings for the last five years. Add the Carradice and I can lug a surprising amount of stuff too.

    Need to go see about the CDF though...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    The majority of EBC products I notice at large within the city are of their hybrid/transport range, with a fair number of their pre-Revolution-label uppercase-sans-serif-"Edinburgh"-logoed-things still out and about, but then I probably only notice that because my old old bike was a flourished-block-capital Revolution and my Gumtree-sparebike is an early-nineties EDINBURGH and I am familiar enough with their markings to be able to recognise them from a distance, unlike most other bicycle manufactorers' designs.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    The answer to all this is basically to do with fashion and marketing.

    Also, we need to remember that the last time there was a mass market in the UK for bikes as transport was probably the 1950s. After that, the car became transport for most people, and consequently the bike as transport was shunned and seen as old fashioned, not aspirational, etc.

    Bike manufacturers faced flagging sales and pitched to a different market: sport and leisure. So the bike became something to get fit on (the 'racer', the 'mountain bike', the 'road bike', 'cross bike', etc.) or something for leisure activities (the tourer, the Sunday pootle bike, the child's toy).

    A few niche retailers (Moulton, Brompton) bucked this trend with their folding and separable bikes which were pitched at commuters (and of course can fit in a car boot).

    Not much has changed since then, particularly outside London. Some new trends have emerged (Dutch bikes, fixies, 'vintage' bikes, cargo bikes, child carrying bikes) but outside a few exceptional, mostly urban areas (Inner London, Cambridge, York) there isn't really a large enough market for such bikes. Even in Edinburgh.

    Until cars become less fashionable/indispensible* then this will not change any time soon.

    * - This has happened in central London, due to congestion charging creating quieter streets for cycling/walking and a viable public transport network.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. crowriver
    Member

    On EBC specifically: as I understand it the business expansion was built by riding the crest of the wave on the mountain bike craze. EBC were first to market in Scotland with MTBs from the likes of Specialized, Cannondale, etc. as well as their own 'Edinburgh' MTB - the Contour.

    Spesh in particular have been very loyal to EBC, so they have exclusive retail rights in Edinburgh for that brand. I can imagine this and their Edinburgh 'Revolution' brand form the core of their business.

    Hybrid bikes are basically 'road' bikes based on MTBs, or with MTB type features: triple chainring, wide range gearing, straight bars... Of course lots of variations have appeared since then: 'fitness' hybrids, 'courier' bikes, 700c hybrids, etc. Many hybrids now resemble old style 'roadsters' minus the hub gear, dynamo lighting and heavy steel frame... As such they have become the default 'transport' bike in the UK, despite often being sold without mudguards, a rack, or lights...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    None of that really explains those people who do cycle, and cycle a lot, and 'choose' a 'non-transport' bike though. Because, yes, there aren't many high street sellers of such bikes, or if they are selling the choice isn't massive, but that doesn't mean they're impossible to get hold of.

    Is it fashion? Possibly partly. Cross bikes have become popular, but one reason is because they are a bit faster than a mountain bike, but made more sturdy than a road bike, with the ability to put wider tyres on, and if you want to add mudguards, and they're also a more comfortable position than a true 'road' bike, so they can turn very easily into 'transport'.

    My Kaff that I commute on I added guards to and a rack, but if it was in a shop window, guardless and rackless, it would be seen as a sportive bike, or cross, or the like. SO also, what is in the window is not necessarily what the bike can become, and many people will be a guardless bike because they like that particular bike, and then add the transport extras.

    Basically, what I'm trying to say is that we can choose to see heavier, sturdier, Dutch-style bikes as 'transport' that shows a place has a cycling culture; but in reality any bike whatsoever can be, and is, transport. I don't want a Dutch bike personally, does that mean I don't use a bike for transport, or have become a victim of 'fashion'? No, it just means I've got bikes that suit me and suit my purposes (the Kaff especially has been an evolution to that point).

    No matter what you ride etc etc...

    On the OP I'm not sure I agree with the article. I think suggesting a lack of access to 'transport' bikes as being a barrier to everyday biking is very very like the line that people not dressed in normal clothes for cycling are a barrier to everyday cycling. I think 'trasnport' bikes of that kind are a consequence of cycling culture, rather than a creator of it (much like the clothing, if cycling is more popular people feel more comfortable). Which I think Crowriver summed up much better than my waffle when saying:

    "Until cars become less fashionable/indispensible* then this will not change any time soon.

    * - This has happened in central London, due to congestion charging creating quieter streets for cycling/walking and a viable public transport network."

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. Min
    Member

    I think 'trasnport' bikes of that kind are a consequence of cycling culture, rather than a creator of it

    I agree. When I feel safe riding at a sedate pace, I will be happy to ride a Dutch bike. I expect that if that ever happens here, by then I will be so old I will need a faster type of bike just to be able to ride at Dutch bike speed.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. Morningsider
    Member

    There isn't a single cycling culture or one type of "correct" transport bike. I would argue that an Edinburgh "transport bike" should not look like a Dutch one. It would be lighter, with a wider gear range to cope with hills and the need to mix with faster moving traffic. In effect a hybrid - which does seem to be the commuter bike of choice in the city. These come in many shapes and sizes - as do cyclists.

    It's also worth remembering that the Dutch and Danes love their cars just as much as Scots (1). It's just that public policy has made urban cycling easier and urban driving more awkward/expensive in these countries. Scots aren't uniquely lazy/stupid/pig headed.

    (1) http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Number_of_passenger_cars_per_inhabitant_by_NUTS_2_region,_2010.PNG

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. fimm
    Member

    I rode to work on my TT bike a few times when I was training for a particular thing and needed to spend as much time as I could on it.

    Sport? Transport? Both? (I would argue both).

    (I'm not suggesting that a TT bike is a suitable transport bike!!!)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Agree with Morningsider, I love my Dutch bike but I don't think you could really call it practical for getting around Edinburgh. It has seven gears, which is almost unheard of for a Dutch bike, but even in bottom gear the mound is a struggle (for a youngish guy of above average fitness).

    For me the real innovation that you see on almost every Dutch bike and don't see in Edinburgh bike shops is the rear wheel lock attached to the frame. They are incredibly practical for situations like locking up your bike outside a cafe where you can see it, locking the bike takes about one and a half seconds when you have these.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. gkgk
    Member

    I borrowed flatmate's EBC straight bar, step-through, basket-on-front £279 ladies' town bike for a go. Handlebars 3 inches higher than seat. It was great! So upright, great traffic-viewing ability, good too for spacial awareness. The gearing was light so it actually felt quite quick, up to a speed (15mph or so) .The better awareness of surroundings made me feel safer and I went slower, so could go closer to parked cars. It was pretty good. If my converted mtb were stolen, I'd consider such a steed, for sure.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. crowriver
    Member

    The so-called Dutch bike is just an updated version of the classic English roadster eg. Raleigh, Sunbeam, Phillips, Dunlop. Pashley still make these and you see a lot of them in Oxford and Cambridge. Occasionally spotted in Edinburgh too, but a bit heavy for the Edinburgh hills.

    If you have the right braze-ons on the frame it's often possible to retro-fit a frame lock. Can be incredibly inexpensive, as here. Often possible even without the right braze-ons. Some models have a cable lock attachment for threading through the front wheel, saddle, etc.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. crowriver
    Member

    "None of that really explains those people who do cycle, and cycle a lot, and 'choose' a 'non-transport' bike though. "

    Well I would argue it does. You are describing a member of the minority "cycling enthusiasts" who "cycle a lot", i.e.. not just on a Sunday, for 'sport', etc. Most of the bike industry's marketing targets enthusiasts (N+1, anyone?).

    There's a reason why you're riding a 'cross' bike rather than a 'tourer' as transport. Despite the fact they are functionally very similar (drop bars, wide gear ratios, steel frame, 700c wheels, good frame clearance, robust braking, etc.).

    I know that you do in fact ride cyclocross events, so it makes sense for you to own a cross bike. That does not explain their popularity in the market however.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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