This is very interesting and revealing of the difference between American and European cycling cultures. For America, in this context, read UK, methinks.
Agent provocateur? Moi?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Bike Activists! I Have Seen the Future! You're Going To Hate It!
(31 posts)-
Posted 9 years ago #
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I'm sure Edinburgh has all of these -
"
"All kinds of people bike everywhere" means little old ladies bike with their groceries and drunk old pensioners bike in their cups and fashionably dressed women in impossibly stylish shoes bike in expensive dresses—and some of those fashionably dressed women ride boxy cargo bikes.
"
Posted 9 years ago # -
AKA, why I wont be using segregated facilities on Leith Walk.
Posted 9 years ago # -
So we rode along pretty slowly after we got "trapped" behind the lady in pink—who wasn't about to risk breaking a sweat in her dress—and no one had a problem with it. People just rode along behind her, letting the woman in the pink dress set the pace, and no one got aggro about it.
Yeah! A chilled-out future. Count me in.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Should have gone to Copenhagen where you get overtaken on the (wide) cycle lanes by speeding gents in suits on upright bikes, and it's perfectly possible to overtake a mother with a box bike, if you can catch her that is.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Wow, scaremongering or something else? "Don't wish for safe cycling! You'll grow to miss punishment passes from HGVs soon enough!"
Posted 9 years ago # -
More than a strong undercurrent of the anti-cyclist from the style of the author... (I may be wrong).
Interesting blanket view as well - Europe = this style of cycling; US = this other style. Certain bits of the US are better than here for example (Portland?), while we're well aware of plenty places in Europe that aren't as good as the cities mentioned in the article and would be worse than some places in the US.
Kinda misses the point a lot as well, in that often the environment will create the style of cycling. So yes, you will get commuter racers and the like in Seattle at the moment, but put in infrastructure like there is in Copenhagen and you may find everyone chills out. Human nature is malleable.
"I sometimes wonder if most cyclists realize the bike future we all hope to build—dedicated bike lanes and a lot more people commuting by bike—looks an awful lot like the car driver's present: crawling along in traffic."
Crawling it may be, but it's moving, which is actually different to much of the motorised traffic. And put in a green wave like Copenhagen... Actually, I wouldn't use the word 'crawling', but rather 'flowing'.
Flowing along in segregated luxury sounds so much more inviting doesn't it?
+1 to PS's chilled out future.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"... or something else?"
Yeah, probably that. Think the person is worried that they are not going to be able to go fast anymore.
Similar sentiment has been raised on here a number of times with people saying they prefer the roads to the paths as they can go faster.
Some of the issue is the demographic of our current cyclists, now I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing as I probably at least partially squeeze into that demographic.
Because of this demographic, and the UK probably has a much larger 'sport' cycling market than most other countries (certainly if Strava evidence is a 'thing'), then the starting point is world away from other countries.
When other countries started addressing their transport problems in the 70s, they weren't trying to accommodate sport, and cycling matured differently as a result.
In trying to address a 'transport' problem here, now, with (what is seen as) enforced cycle lanes, and then trying to square that with the majority 'go fast' mindset who see the lanes as a barrier, and are in the majority, then it is a more difficult proposition.
Outside of 'here' (this forum, and Edinburgh), people at all levels (cyclists, drivers, council people, even the council people employed to further cycling) look at you as if you're some sort of crazy lunatic when you suggest cycle lanes might be a good thing. The common response is there is no need, or there is no money, or 'education' is what is required.
Posted 9 years ago # -
In fairness, that is a desperately poor bike lane. (seems to be near the Siegstor in Munich). Narrow, in the passenger side door zone, crossed at frequent intervals by car ingress/egress routes. Had a look on Google Maps & it was blocked part of the way along by an unloading beer lorry - not sure if I should be happy or sad that this happens in other countries. Plus, because it's Germany and it has blue cycle lane signs up, you are legally compelled to use it.
That's not a future I want any part of, I have to say.
Posted 9 years ago # -
The writer of the article doesn't mention what time of day they were 'trapped' behind the lady in pink - I'm guessing that they were probably on holiday and that it was outside of commuting hours when it seems reasonable to expect that there would be a more varied crowd out on their bikes who would be generally taking it fairly easy.
Posted 9 years ago # -
"When other countries started addressing their transport problems in the 70s, they weren't trying to accommodate sport, and cycling matured differently as a result."
France is reasonably cycle sport leaning, and their changes to Paris came in the 90s. It's a much nicer place to cycle round than Edinburgh (in my opinion), and that involves segregated lanes and slow moving Velibs.
Strava evidence might point to more sport, but then I Strava my commute so I can see how far I've gone each year. So maybe points more to gadget obsessed?
As I mentioned I think, yes, there is a go faster mindset in the UK, but a lot of that is created with the environment. I genuinely believe that if we had Copenhagen style lanes and light sequences that most of the people who say they'd rather be on the road than in cycle lanes may change their mind (for commuting).
Posted 9 years ago # -
Wrong thread - thread links are opening in new windows on my PC. Don't know why.
Posted 9 years ago # -
In fairness, that is a desperately poor bike lane.
I don't think it's that bad a bike lane at all, TBH. In fact, I'd say it was pretty good.
The width and position of the cargo bike in the photo makes it look narrower than it actually is.
It's one-directional (there's one on the other side for folks heading north); it has priority over most side streets, emphasised by cobbled (for the cars) speed tables and continuous delineated and tarmac lanes for the bikes (the ones it doesn't have priority over are the major crossroad intersections); it's fully segregated from pedestrians. I'd happily take all of those.
And it'd be easy enough to cycle round the beer lorry too. Germans gotta beer. Mmmm... Hacker-Pschorr
Posted 9 years ago # -
As I travelled west along Slateford Road this morning, I imagined a future where there was a proper segregated lane (with kerbs) in place of the painted one.
It felt nice, it felt safe(r).
I have not always been a fan of building separate infra, but to be honest I cant see any other way now in towns and cities.
I am a very confident and experienced cyclist, but this week I have twice been soooo glad to get on to the oasis that is the Broomhouse path due to the utter stupidity of some drivers.
And to be honest I am long past the stage of blaming them or writing strongly worded emails, they will never change their behaviour - the only thing which will really improve things is good infra to protect us.
I have no idea if CEC or Scot Gov will do anything, frankly I doubt it.
But if they dont, the future is clear - more destroyed roads, more traffic jams, more frustrated drivers, hence more collateral damaged cyclists / pedestrians.
Bleak, really.............
Posted 9 years ago # -
I'd be happy to ditch strava aspirations forever, in exchange for wide segregated lanes with clear priority at junctions.
The Munich path example seems to be the standard width in urban Germany.
It would have to be twice as wide, for me to consider using responsibly on a theoretical 12-15 mile each way daily commute.
Perhaps the German authorities set their bike lane design standards with fairly short local trips in mind ?
There's still plenty volk in Germany using the main road on drop bar bikes.
Posted 9 years ago # -
... ach, i'm havering.
not 'plenty', but there are some.
but there are plenty cyclers using the titchy-width lanes irresponsibly.
mandatory lanes must mean dutch width standard, accept nothing less.
Posted 9 years ago # -
.. and now, i must drink mehr König Pilsener, followed by PiL at the Columbiahalle.
tchüss !
Posted 9 years ago # -
looks an awful lot like the car driver's present: crawling along in traffic.
Except it wouldn't. Even the slowest cyclist would be moving forwards (except at red lights).
That's not true with cars tailed back in traffic.
I'd be happy to cycle more slowly if that meant being safely away from cars.
Certainly, when I was watching cyclists in Berlin last weekend, I wasn't pitying them for going more slowly than I do in Edinburgh...
...I was envying them for the fact they had proper cycle lanes (that didn't double up as parking lanes) and roads free from potholes.
Posted 9 years ago # -
It seems a lot of cyclists in Edinburgh already make this choice: I'm willing to bet all those on the NEPN aren't thinking "but if I went along Ferry Road I could go faster", or those on the canal "Polwarth Terrace would be quicker"...
Posted 9 years ago # -
"but if I went along Ferry Road I could go faster"
Yes, but conversely there are a fair number already cycling on Ferry Road who don't use the NEPN for exactly that reason.
Those people 'may' find mandatory 'slow' segragated lanes an issue.
Posted 9 years ago # -
I rather enjoyed how incredulous he was about the cyclists "stuck" behind pink dress woman not getting angry with her, as if that is a bad thing.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Maybe he drives a CEF Van back home...
Posted 9 years ago # -
"Those people 'may' find mandatory 'slow' segragated lanes an issue."
Indeed, mandatory lanes would be an issue, and it appears they do have those in Germany, but the article made no mention of that.
Best of both worlds would be "Those paeople 'may' find
mandatory'slow' segregated lanes an issue. So they continue to use the road."Posted 9 years ago # -
I think it will be interesting to see how the faster cyclists deal with the new segregated lanes going in in London. If you've been mixing it with traffic for years and like to go at a fast pace, will you want to slow down a bit in order to use the lanes safely, or will you stick to the road (where you are likely to get more hassle because you "should be using the cycle lane" (not true of course)) where you can go faster? Or will there be a problem of people cycling too fast for the lanes?
Posted 9 years ago # -
If the segregated lanes have green wave or similar, you could actually ride more slowly and arrive sooner than stop-start on the road.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Yeah, I suppose that's why I posted this provocative piece. We have such a different cycling culture here from that of, say, the Netherlands, Denmark or even Germany. Habits built up over years will be difficult to abandon just like that. What I do hope is that segregated bike lanes encourage those who are currently afraid to cycle much to get out on their bikes...
Posted 9 years ago # -
Hmm - I wonder if we really are so intransigent? I met a Dutch person this week, now in London, that has stopped cycling, and there are tales of the reverse happening.
Surely giving up/taking up cycling is much more dramatic than the false dichotomy of speed versus safety.
I say false, as the Danish infrastructure I witnessed did not require a reduction in peak (usually) or average speed to use.
There was room for the local commuters to overtake easily, and not having to give way at most junctions made for higher average speeds compared to Edinburgh carriageways (due to the traffic lights).
Robert
Posted 9 years ago # -
The author apparently has very little idea of what good infrastructure looks like. There will be no need to "crawl along" this new cycleway in London, which is 4 metres wide - built by taking 2 lanes away from the Motorist:
[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video Notice the priority over the side roads - Edinburgh could have this too, if only the council's designers would remove their ostrich heads from the sand. It also has the advantage that it allows you to cycle along the street in both directions. People who insist on vehicular cycling on the road will find themselves slumming it with the cars, able to cycle in only one direction. So much for segregation restricting the freedom of cyclists!
Posted 9 years ago # -
"People who insist on vehicular cycling on the road will find themselves slumming it with the cars, able to cycle in only one direction. So much for segregation restricting the freedom of cyclists!"
"If the segregated lanes have green wave or similar, you could actually ride more slowly and arrive sooner than stop-start on the road"
Actually, those are fair points thinking of Copenhagen. The road route squirms about because you can't go anywhere in a straight line (to discourage car use), and the green wave for bikes means that a 'gentle' pace is overall and on average quicker.
"Surely giving up/taking up cycling is much more dramatic than the false dichotomy of speed versus safety"
And very much this.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Wow. Nice lanes.
Not a lot of cyclists in that video (by London standards).
It was actually another of CycleGaz's videos, of a different part of the new lanes, that I was thinking about in terms of the speed "versus" convenience discussion.
I've even got a half-finished blog post on the subject, inspired by the Meadows - Innocent link...Posted 9 years ago #
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