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Modal shift - potential/reality

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    There's been rather a lot on CCE recently about walking v cycling - or more accurately whether LSE is right to 'defend pedestrian interests' by objecting to CEC's plans for Roseburn.

    And whether, in turn, 'we' are self righteously wrong.

    I think CCE has quite a good record - especially raising issues around "shared use" and also pointing out that both cyclists (and particularly those who would like to be) and pedestrians suffer from poor allocation of space, and neither should have to 'give up' any for the other.

    I also went back to the report of the LSE meeting.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14791

    Apart from the suggestions of some degree of antagonism towards "cyclists", the most important points in the thread were about distance/journey times.

    'We' try to persuade people that many could easily cycle 3-5 miles. Perceived barriers being fitness or safety.

    The latter is important and infrastructure - like the Leith Walk to Roseburn proposal - is an example of a significant improvement.

    So there are real possibilities of a shift from cars to bikes (particularly for travel to work) if people could feel more confident.

    By contrast pedestrian issues are more about pavement surfaces, inadequate road crossings - and the time taken - and traffic, though concerns seem to be more about 'rogue cyclists' (with or without Lycra) than the real danger.

    So in a world of perfect pedestrian infrastructure would more people be likely to walk the sort of distances they currently use a car for?

    If not, it seems entirely reasonable that more money is being allocated for cycling.

    Are there any stats/examples of initiatives that have changed people from drivers to walkers/riders - and ideas of cost per user/mile?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. "in a world of perfect pedestrian infrastructure would more people be likely to walk the sort of distances they currently use a car for?"

    Don't really think so.

    I live in Inch with almost perfect pedestrian infrastructure, 20mph, generally very little traffic, very few streets suitable for through traffic but many footpaths that connect streets, pavements generally in good condition. I honestly can't think how you could improve the area, except for a cycle path along Gilmerton Rd. and an additional dropped kerb here or there.

    Still, many people drive even short distances, I guess 2/3 of local trips are by car, the rest walking. Many of the walkers are children or elderly people who may not be able to drive.

    I don't think walking is affected so much by bad/good pedestrian infrastructure.

    Car use is high around here because there is plenty of parking, so people have the car right in front of the house and also can easily park at the local shops. It's just the only mode of transport on peoples' minds.

    When I lived in a flat nearer the centre, I thought more neighbours walked, even though the pedestrian infrastructure was much worse (cluttered, narrow, damaged pavements, busy roads etc.). Pavements might be unpleasant but normally don't feel unsafe, so most people cope. Some (many elderly) may not go out at all (which is reason enough to improve things), but I don't think perfect pedestrian infrastructure will affect car use much unless driving also becomes inconvenient.

    Some more local observations:

    Customers at the local shops come from maximal 200 or 300 metres away (anybody further away will go to Sainsbury's or Morrison's), still most drive, or quite frequently a husband drives his wive and waits right in front of the shop with the engine running. These are not shops where you buy bootloads of stuff, but something like a pack of fags or a lottery ticket. Often people drive just down the road to visit relatives or friends.

    School traffic at Liberton primary is horrific - ok, the catchment extends quite a bit and Gilmerton Rd is busy at peak times, but most of the pupils must come from within Inch and could walk through purely residential areas or through Inch Park, they may have to cross Gilmerton Rd once. I haven't seen any kids or parents cycling to school, but some kids have bicycles and occasionally ride around the neighbourhood.

    Similarly at the Inch Park sports centre, some walk through the park but most drive in and park right in front (I had a big fight for months with the parks management about loads of illegal parking on the grass). The handful of bike racks are always empty. Inch House is the same.

    The exception is Bridgend Community Farm where the fence is full of bikes when there is an event on, but the car park is also full, I'd say 1/3 bikes, 1/3 cars, 1/3 walking.

    I haven't seen many other local people on bikes, only commuters coming down Gilmerton Rd and some leisure riders on the way to Craigmillar Castle Park.

    The shops didn't have bike racks until I nagged council enough to get some installed, and within a week somebody had reversed into them and mangled them up (they've now been moved to a better place but I never see other bikes).

    The area would be almost perfect for active travel in terms of distances, infrastructure and public transport, except for some steep roads. Still it's car-dominated.

    EDIT: Doesn't mean it's not possible to get modal shift, but I think in the 1950s suburbs like Inch it's not about infrastructure but about "culture" (I know...), changing people's attitudes that the car isn't the only real means of transport.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. Roibeard
    Member

    *waves at Stephan*

    There are other cyclists in the Inch, indeed including a few families that cycle for transport.

    Of course, we do have neighbours who drive to the local shop, which is close enough for us to send our kids round on foot to pick up the breakfast milk during the morning chaos...

    Robert
    <wandering off to check the work email directory>

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. @Roibeard Good to hear. I know 2 people who also cycle, just overall you don't see much cycling. We should get together some time, would be nice to know more local people.

    I guess a point was that for many "ordinary" people in such suburbs cycling doesn't register as a means of transport (rather than kids fun or leisure/sport) because they don't see anybody doing it.

    Cycling unfortunately doesn't cause long traffic jams or take up noticeable space, so people on bikes are quite invisible.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. The Boy
    Member

    I'd say the above rings true of my experience living in Clermiston - another 50s suburb.

    The parking situation outside the local shop was hellish, and almost all of that was local traffic.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. Roibeard
    Member

    Cycling unfortunately doesn't cause long traffic jams or take up noticeable space, so people on bikes are quite invisible.

    Yes, yes, but perhaps no...

    More people recognise me (and the family) on the road when on bikes than when in the car. That may be either because we're unusual, or because we can be seen more easily and are passing at a more human-scale pace.

    However I know what you mean - it's the same blindness that overlooks walking as transportation, despite most journeys including walking (cf road clearing after snow)!

    Robert

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. sallyhinch
    Member

    The ever-excellent Travelwest Essential Evidence series throws up this on behavioural interventions

    http://travelwest.info/project/ee-behaviour-change-techniques-promote-walking-cycling-systematic-review

    It would appear that 'build it and they will come' is the answer though

    http://travelwest.info/project/ee-walking-and-cycling-build-it-and-will-they-come

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    From link -

    "

    Top line: In the short term new local walking and cycling routes may largely displace existing trips. However, the routes can generate new trips in the longer term, particularly among those unable to access more distant locations by car.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. Min
    Member

    I am simply not able to wrap my brain around the complicated mental gymnastics people need to perform to come to the conclusion that cyclists are more of a threat to pedestrians than motorists.

    Nor am I able to get my head around the mentality of people who drive mere meters to the shops when they could easily walk. I think for those slightly longer journeys though (and I would start that at 1.5 miles as that is normally my own threshold although I am talking one-way so it could be the same thing) cycling should very easily be able to transplant car journeys. So long as you make it easy to cycle and difficult to drive. Slightly wider pavements and cycle lanes that weave around all over the backstreets are just not going to do that.

    This is not, I repeat NOT to say that things should not be improved for pedestrians too, we are treated extremely badly in Edinburgh compared to other cities but it is a fact that the basic infrastructure is already there and I find it extremely unlikely that cycling gets more spent on it than walking. I think pavements and crossings are just so much taken for granted that people don't even think about it.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    "It would appear that 'build it and they will come' is the answer though"

    Surely in the context of 1950s suburbs that is the problem? Designed around the car, therefore encouraging its use?

    There is the "culture" issue though. I think it is pretty recent that people drive 300 yards to the shop. Starting in the 1990s maybe?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. The Boy
    Member

    @crowriver

    i was talking about that with a friend the other day. Growing up in Cortorphine and spending 12 years living in Clermiston, the thing that strike you when you walk around is that - even in quiet, suburban back streets - the corner radius is huge. Like really, really big - some of the roads on Corstorphine Bank which are yet to have the radius tightened are good examples.

    Obviously these roads were designed and built for the sort of rocking, rolling vehicles that existed at the time. But a corner that allows a Hillman Imp to struggle round at 15-20 can let a modern car easily do double that. Which is obviously lovely if you're trying to get around on foot.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. The Boy
    Member

    And that doesn't even touch on the more overarching notion of the suburb being built around the car - one small collection of shops and a pub at he heart of the development, large arterial roads to get to other areas of the city.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "Starting in the 1990s maybe?"

    Must be stats (UK?) on proportion of journeys at various distances.

    Wonder how it would equate to 'rise in obesity' and/or number of vehicles on the road...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. Min
    Member

    There is the "culture" issue though. I think it is pretty recent that people drive 300 yards to the shop. Starting in the 1990s maybe?

    It would be interesting to know if that is the case but if it is, it could be more to do with more people moving into cities and spreading their habits. More rural people drive insanely short distances. People used to drive to our shop in the wee village I grew up in and the one that sticks out most is the man who lived across the road - actually two roads technically but he used to drive across at 7.20 every morning and sit with his engine running until the shop opened at 7.30. This was in the 80s.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "and difficult to drive"

    Quite.

    Not (politically) there yet.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. "It would appear that 'build it and they will come' is the answer though"

    In Inch, they have built and they didn't come.

    I really don't think there is such a simple relationship. It might work better for cycling than for walking; and it might work up to a certain level but then then become ineffective.

    For walking, there is already infrastructure that would enable the vast majority of people to walk. But more people walk on the abysmal pavements around Nicolson Street than they do in all the good convenient pavements and footpaths through parks in Inch. There are other factors that determine car use.

    I definitely don't want to dismiss the research, but there is a systematic issue that much of it studies very low levels, let's say increasing cycling from 2% to 5%, but not the high end - how to get from 40% to 80%.

    For walking, it's not a few percent like cycling, but more in the 30-50% range. So the problem is different.

    Even in Utrecht, the role model of cycling infrastructure that everybody praises, there is still 39% modal share for private vehicles (2015) while London has 34% in 2011, (Source: Wikipedia).

    There are specific situation where building something can make a difference. For example, Craigmillar Castle Av. is just about 50 metres away from Lidl and shops in Niddrie Mains Rd. but there is no footpath an people have to walk 600 metres around the whole block to get there.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. SRD
    Moderator

    @theboy one of the reasons I was eager to join Living Streets Edinburgh was because i heard David Spaven talk about corner radii

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. The Boy
    Member

    God, yeah. Even in semi-rural places, or smalls towns in rural settings the car seems to be used for ridiculous journeys.

    i remember my mum offering to drive me the 300m to the local shop when we were visiting the folks in Dumfries. Imagine her reaction when we said we would just get the bus the whole mile and a half to Whitesands.

    And she is still the same now that they're back in Edinburgh. I once cycled from Clermiston to Roseburn to drop something off or bodge something in the flat that wasn't working. A full 11 or 12 minutes of cycling and she couldn't understand why I didn't just let her drive over and get me.

    Admittedly she is full-time carer for someone who struggles to walk across a road, but it goes back way further than that.

    edit: @Min.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "one of the reasons I was eager to join Living Streets Edinburgh was because i heard David Spaven talk about corner radii"

    Speechless!!!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. Min
    Member

    @theboy one of the reasons I was eager to join Living Streets Edinburgh was because i heard David Spaven talk about corner radii

    Oh yes I HATE that. I have to walk further to allow motorists to roar round that corner faster? Our survey says NO.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    Maybe it was the 1980s then. In the 1970s lived for a while as a small child in a wee village with my granny. People did drive quite a lot even then, but not for short distances. I walked home from school across the fields, dodging cow pats. In the summer I would walk on the main road, popping tar bubbles by stamping on them. Can't remember many cars driving on it.

    I went back to that village in the 1990s, to see how it had changed. A huge bypass had been built nearby, and the village had become a commuter dormitory for the nearest big city some 30 miles away. The cottage formerly owned by my granny had a 4x4 parked outside. The farmhouse up the track had been converted into a luxury home. The village shops had closed years ago. Only the pub was left.

    During the 1980s we lived in Orkney, and unless you lived in the centre of Kirkwall everyone drove everywhere. There were occasional buses to certain places, but I remember them being largely empty. I did cycle on our island during the holidays: we found an old Dunlop roadster in the garage when we moved in, and I rode that. Heavy but it was relatively flat on the island. In the winter cycling was next to impossible due to the wind.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. @crowriver "Surely in the context of 1950s suburbs that is the problem? Designed around the car, therefore encouraging its use?"

    In a sense, yes, but I think it started in the 1950s or perhaps 1960s. The Inch doesn't seem to be designed for the car as main transport, I think it was build before 1955. Roads are just wide enough for two cars to pass (now with parking it's one lane, and lorries often have to negotiate parked cars at walking speed), none of them are straight, and there are a couple of footpaths that are real shortcuts.

    I'd say it was built in a time when walking was the main mode but with the car in mind, expecting people to have a car but perhaps use it for weekend trips rather than daily.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    "God, yeah. Even in semi-rural places, or smalls towns in rural settings the car seems to be used for ridiculous journeys."

    Which is one reason why I never moved out to Fife, like most of my relatives. I don't want to be part of that "culture".

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. Min
    Member

    The Boy i remember my mum offering to drive me the 300m to the local shop when we were visiting the folks in Dumfries.

    I just had my Dad force-drive me to the local shop not even 300m away because it was (and I quote) "cold". I tried to walk but he drove after me.

    Chdot Quite.

    Not (politically) there yet.

    It is absolutely critical. The majority of people will do the easiest thing and driving is almost always the easiest thing. No parking spaces? Simply park illegally or drive around until you find one.

    We on this board are extraordinary in making an effort to move from one place to the other and it is easy to forget that. The enormous benefits to ourselves and to society of walking and cycling more are simply not enough.(ps-I know you know this but I am just saying..)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. neddie
    Member

    my experience living in Clermiston...

    I was running that way yesterday (Kaimes area) and I have to say the pavement parking was appalling.

    Almost every single car parked on the street had its wheels up on the pavement and yet there was plenty of space in the carriageway. It's that mentality of, "I better not inconvenience any fellow motorists by slowing them down a little" and completely forgetting that there might actually be pedestrians, let alone mothers with buggies & children.

    A couple of the cars were parked so close to a hedge that it would've been impossible for a single buggy to pass without going on the road. And the kerbstones were already damaged.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. LaidBack
    Member

    On a tangent...

    I blame science fiction.... (!)

    Name find one mainstream account of the future where cars are not an 'attractive' dominant feature*. These can be beat up pick ups (as seen in Interstellar ) or flying ones (Blade Runner and clones thereof).
    There was one amusing episode of Doctor Who where everyone was stuck in some vast flying car traffic jam which really was 'not attractive'.

    The new Star Wars movie does have a flying / levitating motorbike that heroine Ray uses on her scavanging trips. Should have been a fat bike with electric assist!

    * The forum will now list a load of sci-fi films and Iain M Banks novels where bikes were used widely. Or where people walked a lot.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. Some random thoughts and personal experiences on ped/cycle conflict.

    • Overall I don't see/experience much real conflict between people on bikes versus foot, including on shared paths and the occasional pavement(*). There are a few tricky locations where everybody has to watch out, but in real life it seems to work well. Bike-car conflicts are more frequent.
    • If there is general group antagonism, it's usually pedestrians worrying/angry about cyclists, but I can't recall ever hearing that a cyclist has a fundamental problem with pedestrians (I don't mean moaning about the occasional dozy person wandering into a cycle lane, but the kind of generalised "they should be banned" attitude)
    • While a group antagonism against cyclists is often expressed online, in media, in certain meetings etc., has anybody experienced it on the streets? I can't recall that I (or other people) have ever been shouted at by pedestrians (but lots of drivers) just for being on a bike. I have seen pedestrians shouting at specific cyclists who were reckless though, but this seemed more about concrete specific behaviour than general anti-cycling sentiment.
    • Whatever cycling/ped asttitudes are, a different question is which specific organisations (Living Streets Edinburgh, Spokes, PoP) are the best suited to address them. Without wanting to dismiss anybody and as somebody who's not really involved much in anything, my impression so far was that Spokes, PoP an various individuals who are not obviously attached to an organisation have had more of an impact on improving the pedestrian environment than LSE, although I don't know how much is going on behind closed doors.

    (*) There is only one bit of pavement that I use occasionally, of course at walking speed. It is at the shops at Niddrie Mains Road. The pavement there is extremely wide with few people, while the road is narrow, almost always congested, with drivers trying to squeeze past and speeding up after the shops.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    "I can't recall that I (or other people) have ever been shouted at by pedestrians"

    Happens on the canal.

    In general fault likely to be with individual bike riders who 'cycle too fast for the conditions'.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. @chdot "shouted at" "Happens on the canal."

    Ok, I hadn't thought of the canal, as I only cycled it twice.

    I'd say this is an exceptional case as it's really narrow and far far far too busy.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. wingpig
    Member

    "* The forum will now list a load of sci-fi films and Iain M Banks novels where bikes were used widely. Or where people walked a lot."

    There's an Asimov short about a family's teleporter breaking - the child walks to school, but then gets a taste for it, which spreads to his family and the psychologist engaged to investigate this "walking" peculiarity. Asimov was also big on multi-speed conveyor belts for intra-city travel, though.

    Back home, people would drive about one hundred metres to the local supermarket. There were also wee shops but they were on the same street. The new supermarket (been there about twenty years now) is effectively on the same street, which is the main street on which all the shops are except in the few cases where shops are a very short way down a side street. There was one bus every weekday (two on Tuesday and Thursday (being Market Days)) to the nearest larger town, whence one could get buses to The City. You saw a few people bimbling about on bikes but they were outnumbered by posties and newspaperchildren.

    My 1930ish dwelling-area was not built with cars in mind - a few houses have a garage, a few have had their front gardens converted but most people park outside (on THEIR BIT (see another thread from a couple of days ago)), rending the streets single-vehicle-width, with some exciting bits where vehicles dotted on either side make a slalom. The parking is almost all on the road where I am, but in the areas I pass through on the way to work there are newer blocks and tenements with wide footways with cars half-up on both, like Marionville Road.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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