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As noted on another thread ASLs boxes in various parts of Edinburgh are having their white bicycles repainted - but not the underlying red.
Whether this an interim measure and the next repaint will include the red remains to be seen...
No doubt there is a financial reason, but not a great saving in this world class cycling city.
IS this the thread where I say I'm all in favour of them not being painted? So long as the white lines demarcating the box are clear then as far as this ill-informed poster is concerned then that is good. My logic? The worst road surfaces in Edinburgh are the bus lane / greenway / red lane / rumble strips that they don't have enough money to maintain.
The coloured surfaces erode away, leaving a surface that is like navigating a minefield to an x23c tyre. My old man informs me that it needs an expensive sort of epoxy to glue these coatings to the road surface. So if we can't afford to put them down or maintain them then we're better off without.
Funnily enough the best observed ASL in all Edinburgh is the one at the bottom of North Bridge where not only is there no paint, but the second white line has faded out as well!
This makes me think it would be better for cyclists if they simply moved the white line back from the lights but made it legal for cyclists to wait ahead of the line, but before the pedestrian crossing part.
"Funnily enough the best observed ASL in all Edinburgh is the one at the bottom of North Bridge where not only is there no paint, but the second white line has faded out as well!"
This is my observation as well and is why I am not much of a fan of the red paint.
I'm sure just repainting the white lines would be fine.
"Funnily enough the best observed ASL in all Edinburgh is the one at the bottom of North Bridge where not only is there no paint, but the second white line has faded out as well!"
If the 2nd white line has faded out then that sounds like a possible reason to me for why this is so well observed? (i.e. drivers can't see that there is a bike box to stop on the top of).
None of which explains why poorly observed ones are in fact poorly observed! I suspect it has a lot to do with road layout, actually - my age old example of Marchmont rd/strathearn being a good example, where I am sure muliple factors, including slight incline, lead east-west commuters to edge up as far as they can. AND the lack of clear curb to road on left leads them to totally ignore bike lane alongside (which some red would help). Perhaps time to chase Mr Mackenzie about certain vague promises he made about this last year...
I've noticed that multi-lane roads seem to have better discipline too, perhaps because it's more taboo for motorists to push right out in front of the car alongside, for fear of kicking off a race (although that sounds like a good explanation for why it wouldn't be well observed, too!)
"Perhaps time to chase Mr Mackenzie about certain vague promises he made about this last year..."
Seems like last year but was actually March!
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=373#post-4174
More photos
"My old man informs me that it needs an expensive sort of epoxy to glue these coatings to the road surface. So if we can't afford to put them down or maintain them then we're better off without."
I think that may be the way the bus lanes were done, and some of the ASLs -
But I think the ASL in the top photo was 'paint' which has worn through rather than jumped off.
In the big scheme of things the cost is negligible.
Spokes has campaigned for years for more ASLs and red infill. This is particular an issue in the World Heritage part of town where there are 'streetscape' objections. (Though there is no consistency with policy/practice - this is Edinburgh...)
Clearly repainting the white lines long before they fade away is vital for simple road safety reasons AND to demonstrate that CEC is 'serious' about cycling.
IF regular use of white paint instead of (any?) red is the new policy(?) it might be a pragmatic choice. IF SO perhaps we can see some more miles of white lines (preferably before the clocks go back ... or at least before it gets much darker!)
Meanwhile we still have to live with this sort of stuff -
.
Doing research on CEC ASL policy now! May take a day or two to get a response from CEC! If not we can always do an FOI on it!?
The North Bridge example is interesting. If I'm feeling generous*, I would say that at traffic lights drivers have developed the habit of stopping at the solid white line that is nearest to the lights. As is so often the case, this is at the front of the ASL box.
How about we save on white paint and do not paint that front solid white line, so that we no longer have a box but instead have a solid white line for cars to stop at with a bicycle painted in front of it to mark where bikes should stop? Obviously we'd need a new acronym to replace ASL, but I could live with that if it meant cars stopped at the correct place.
*A rare occurence - most of the time I would say they are being ignorant, inconsiderate or down-right rude.
"we'd need a new acronym"
Advanced Stop Section?
De-Motorized Zone?
I know signs are hideously expensive but the odd extra little junction-side traffic notice stating "motor vehicles to stop and wait BEHIND red box" would give us a little official backup and something to point at when we glare backwards at the motor vehicle occupying most of the advanced stop area after squeezing through to the front and shuffling sideways to try and block the vehicle whilst not encroaching on the pedestrian crossing channel. Pointing down at the faded stylised bicycle on the patched and faded red surface doesn't work when the vehicle is right on top of it.
Perhaps we could start stealing those "when red light shows wait HERE" signs from temporary light setups and stick them beside the road at the back of particularly infrequently-obeyed ASLs.
"De-Motorized Zone"
Sounds good!
I never think it looks so good when cars are waiting behind the correct stop line and a cyclist appears and stops beyond the 2nd stop line.
Many drivers honestly think that the line which applies is the closest one to the lights - you can see this advice being given out regularly on drivers' forums.
To confuse people I often stop at the first line on the bike (which is technically the legal requirement, although it's a stupid and actively dangerous bit of law).
As for the above, well, it's probably a bit much to expect cyclists to stay behind their line, if motorists can't do the same. After all, cyclists are drivers (well, the vast majority are).
@Rabid Hamster
Sent a message to CEC yesterday and they have passed it to the "appropriate service area" who are to reply to me by 12/11/2010.
The very fact that at the spot I mentioned they simply have not repainted the box (red or not) where there used to be one disturbs me. I never saw any consulation notices of the change, which is something they should do. We only have to look at all the effort Spokes put in to get these facilities in the first place, as pointed out by chdot, and if they can then be removed on a whim it sets a worrying precedent.
Have you seen the colour of some of the new 'red' patches the City have been putting down recently? It is closer to a 'pink' than red. Until they sort out the colour I'm happy with unshaded ASLs :-)
They've repainted the lines at the Gorgie junction of Westfield road but they've neglected to put the ASL in at all. Model Cycling city....
Presume you mean here.
Wonder when that was last painted!
There seems to have been a cycle lane and ASL box quite far back from lights(?)
The lines now look very fresh so recently, but before that it was years ago when the resurfaced Gorgie.
The line is very far back to let the 1 and 2 round the tight corner.
I used to use that junction frequently - the red box always had a car in it or over it, but that was largely due to the poor situation of the markings, and the fact that the box was so far back from the junction.
I eventually gave up on the Stevenson Road / Westfield Road sides of the rectangle and started to go Balgreen Road / Gorgie Road instead which is slightly further but much faster, due to the tarffic lights/junctions involved.
I'll be back on that route soon...
must be ASL season.. Mark at IBIKELONDON is talking about them too. Not the edinburgh ones mind you. :)
One of the problems with junctions like Stevenson Road / Westfield Road is that a lot of drivers do not understand why the stop line are where they are. Basically the marking are back from the lights to allow swing room for HGV's, if the ASL's are not properly marked and enforced, it does make things potentially more hazardous for cyclist.
"Basically the marking are back from the lights to allow swing room for HGV's"
Understand the theory, but presumably any lorry 'caught' by a red light would be well past the ASL and, presumably, in the right hand lane - blocking traffic??
"Basically the marking are back from the lights to allow swing room for HGV's"
Is it not on T- or 4-way junctions that buses and lorries would be coming from the opposite direction and will swing round the corner tight (rather than wide) to get round the 90 degree bend. A cyclist sitting in an ASL on the right hand side would be toast, unless it is set back a bit.
The ASL at the end of Gilmour Place is very vulnerable to buses turning right from Brougham / Leven Street if you are sitting in the right hand side of the ASL to turn right. I always sit far back and towards the centre on this box (it is also the best position to avoid the monstrous potholes outside the King's Theatre)
The first few times I tried that junction coming from Gilmore Place and turning right, I had to hop off the bike and scoot over to make room for right-turning buses from Leven Street!
Hmmmm.....I have more problems/concerns about the buses turning left from Gilmore Place towards Tollcross - they get an advance green arrow. So I always make a point of sitting well on the right-hand-side of the ASL and have never had any problems with buses turning across.
Turning right out of Cluny Gardens into Morningside Road is another place to be a bit careful as the into-town bound 41 will often sweep over a fair bit of ASL.
Talking of stop lines being placed back from the junction, can anyone explain the junction of the Glasgow Road and Roseburn Street? Heading out of town on the Glasgow Road the left hand lane is for left turning traffic for Roseburn Street and the right hand lane is for straight-ahead traffic. But the stop line on the left hand lane is much further back from the junction, which feels like the wrong way round.
Is it so that large vehicles turning left can use the right hand lane?
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