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Should Spokes Advocate the Two-Stage Right Turn?

(33 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by UtrechtCyclist
  • Latest reply from Stephan Matthiesen

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  1. Stephan Matthiesen
    Member

    Two-stage turns and simultaneous green are not mutually exclusive. You can have a two-stage turn in phase with the motor traffic light sequence, but additionally also have cyclists-only simultaneous green phases.

    Problem is, if I understand correctly, the simultaneous green needs a change of law, so the council doesn't have this option.

    Many junctions would be much easier to cross if cyclists were allowed to use the pedestrian green phase (some already do, but that's technically red light jumping), they dont actually need a completely separate cycling phase (which would make the whole signal cycle longer).

    Could the law be changed to allow that? Of course there would be the worry that cyclists then bomb at 30mph through a junction packed with people, the UK is a bit dogmatic about cyclists-pedestrian conflicts.

    Another problem with simultaneous green is what to do with cyclists who want to go straight ahead. Do they also have to wait for the simultaneous green phase (in which case you have to stop at most junctions...), or can they go on during the motor traffic greens (which, in the UK system, leads to confusion for protected lanes but is standard on the continent).

    In the Hembrow example video, if I see this correctly, all cyclists have to stop first and can only go during the green scramble phase (that's what Wagenbuur doesn't like...)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Thanks everyone for the comments so far about two stage turns in general. I found a picture that looks like the kind of thing that Spokes might choose to advocate.

    Take a look at the picture at the top of this article by the London Cycling Campaign.

    Ignore almost everything about this picture (particularly the awful the off desire line staggered pedestrian crossings, and the fact that it's a two way segregated cycle lane rather than one way), I'm interested in the box labeled 'waiting areas for turning cyclists'. Cyclists coming east along New Bridge Street wait there before turning south into Fleet Street (I'm assuming north is up).

    This set up might be a bit confusing for cyclists at first. It doesn't feel as nice as the kind of good kerb segregated waiting area that can be built for two stage right turns at bigger junctions. Do you feel safe waiting in that box?

    On the plus side it is something that can be built without taking away pavement space from pedestrians and is designed for when you're turning into small streets where there isn't necessarily a lot of space (or a lot of cyclists turning). I've seen and used this kind of facility in Holland.

    Imagine now that there was a junction in Edinburgh of a minor road with wide avenue that is to get segregated cycle lanes down each side and will potentially soon have trams going down it. Would we welcome the addition of this two stage option in addition to the ASL which is already in the plans?

    I personally would always take the two stage option over crossing tram tracks with traffic breathing down my neck, but am keen for more opinions.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. Stephan Matthiesen
    Member

    @Utrechtcyclist Looks straightforward to me, but I grew up in the continental tradition so I'm not sure how it is for UK people.

    One big question is always what are the alternatives. It's much better than people having to leave the bike lane and get into the right filter lane. If the side road has a protected bike lane, then the waiting area should also be off-road, but if the side road doesn't have a protected lane (like here) it seems much better to have the waiting area on-road as well (there isn't any conflict here); otherwise you have to join the carriageway in the middle/end of the junction just when the cars get green which most UK motorists wouldn't expect.

    A detail is that it should be marked clearly, I can't really see that in the figure.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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