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"Queensferry Crossing project ‘months behind schedule’ "

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  1. ejstubbs
    Member

    @cb: According to Wikipedia, the nominal start* of the River Forth is at the confluence of the Duchray Water which runs from the eastern slopes of Ben Lomond, and the Avondhu River that flows out of Loch Ard. (This interpretation seems to be shared by the Forth District Salmon Fishery Board.) If you look on the OS map the bridges in Milton are all to the west of that confluence, so are on the Avondhu River, not the Forth.

    On that basis, the first bridge over the Forth is the one at Aberfoyle.

    I've built a list in Google Maps of all the bridges on the Forth, I believe those interested should be able to access it via this link.

    @IWRATS: Not to forget the car ferries which operated the Queensferry Passage. Less well-known are the nineteenth century ferries across the firth from Granton and Newhaven, and the roll-on/roll-off train ferry service proposed and commissioned in 1850 by Thomas Bouch for the Edinburgh, Leith and Newhaven Railway - the first operating train ferry in the world. Bouch was also involved in two bridge proposals for the North British Railway which pre-dated the Forth Bridge. The first of these would have crossed near Charlestown; the second was more or less on the line of the current Forth Bridge, and you can still see the remnants of a bridge pier which was started on Inchgarvie in 1878. Bouch's involvement in plans to cross the firth came to end after his Tay Bridge collapsed in 1879. Finally, there was Kirkaldy hovercraft that was trialled for two weeks in 2007, as mentioned by Frenchy.

    * Meaning: the point from which the water course goes by that name.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  2. rider73
    Member

    bus this morning, took ages as i just missed one but at least i had people to chat to for the wait - AND - it was not raining.

    not sure i'll be so lucky on the way back, looking at the weather.....

    Posted 7 years ago #
  3. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    the Avondhu River that flows out of Loch Ard

    I do live the idea of a River Blackriver.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  4. cb
    Member

    @ejstubbs: thanks for that. I've always just 'known' that the Forth started at Loch Ard so good to be educated on that point.

    (Actually having looked at the map it did feel like the Avondhu (or what I thought was the Forth) was a tributary of the Duchray Water. Further downstream it feels to me like the Teith is the major river with the Forth joining it).

    Interested in your Google Map list, but it's asking for permission at the moment.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  5. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    "Further downstream it feels to me like the Teith is the major river with the Forth joining it"

    I've always thought that too. Firth of Teith doesn't have the same ring to it though.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  6. wangi
    Member

  7. ejstubbs
    Member

    @cb: I think I've managed to set the Google Maps list to be shareable via this link. Let me know if it doesn't work.

    wangi's link suggests that in ancient times the river was called "an abhainn dubh" - "The Black River" - all the way to Stirling. It also says that "Forth" derives from "fjord" - which, given that "firth" is linguistically cognate to "fjord" would make another tautology: the Firth of Forth being the Fjord of the Fjord...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  8. Frenchy
    Member

    That link works.

    It also shoes that I missed the bridge at Easter Ross farm.

    Looks like it might be another that takes some brass to cross, though.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    In my mind the highest point on a river's basin is its source unless there's good reason to say otherwise.

    Still smarting that what is clearly Loch Spey is called Loch A'an, what with the summit of Ben Macdui being on the Dee/Spey watershed.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  10. cb
    Member

    @ejstubbs: Thanks - can see the map now!

    Interesting that the Avondhu River has taken the Gaelic name for the Forth so perhaps the source was considered Loch Ard at some point.

    Now, I wonder about that pipeline at NS7693...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  11. cb
    Member

    "Now, I wonder about that pipeline at NS7693..."

    It's mentioned in here (Beauly to Denny underground cable alternative proposal):
    https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/userfiles/file/Part_2_APPENDIX_11_APL_STG-41_compressed.pdf

    "The crossing of the River Forth would be at NS761937 slightly to the west of
    where Johnny’s Burn (which flows under Polrogan Bridge in Figure 3-6) flows into
    the River Forth. The crossings of pressurised hydrocarbon fuel pipes are
    reasonably close to this location so it may be necessary to relocate any cable
    crossing at least 50m away from the pipeline crossing point (to avoid damage
    during the construction of the river crossing, particularly if directional drilling is
    used where there is an increased risk of a misdirected drill hitting and damaging a
    pipe). Figure 3-6 is an annotated aerial photograph of the position for the crossing
    of the River Forth."

    Posted 7 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    Ok, so what's the current count for Forth bridges?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The site, which will be developed next to Rosyth docks at the foot of the Queensferry Crossing, will also feature a 120-bed budget hotel.

    William McAlister, property director of Scarborough Muir Group, believes the Crossing will allow Fife firms to take advantage of better connections with the Lothians.

    He said: “The opening of the Queensferry Crossing means that Fife is truly open for business as connectivity issues are addressed.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/250-million-waterfront-development-could-create-thousands-of-new-jobs-1-4550585

    Posted 7 years ago #
  14. ejstubbs
    Member

    @ IWRATS "In my mind the highest point on a river's basin is its source unless there's good reason to say otherwise."

    As far as I can see from the 1:25,000 OS maps, the highest starting point for a watercourse in the basin that feeds the Avondubh River (via Loch Chon and the Water of Chon which flows in to Loch Ard) is at around 480m, on the east face of Beinn Uamha. On the other hand, the Caorainn Achaidh Burn - which becomes the Duchray Water after it joins the Abhainn Gaoithe at Stuc a' Bhuic - drains the northern slopes of Ben Lomond, and at least one of its tributaries is shown starting at over 700m. On the other, other hand at least one of the watercourses which contributes to the River Teith (via the Glen Finglas reservoir) starts at over 700m too.

    However, as I said before, the confluence of the Avondubh River and the Duchray Water is the nominal start of the Forth ie the location downstream from which the river is known by that name. It's not supposed to be the source.

    Down in Englandshire, the source of the Thames as marked on OS maps is at a place called Trewsbury Mead, at about 110m altitude. An alternative view is that a place nearby, and at about the same altitude, called Thames Head is the true source, even though the spring there is seasonal ie is doesn't run all your round. The third location competing for the crown is Seven Springs near Cheltenham, which is at around 200m altitude and has a spring that runs all year - although that spring is officially the source of the River Churn, which joins the Thames (which is already known by that name upstream of the confluence) at Cricklade.

    Confusing, isn't it? That's geographers for you.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "Confusing, isn't it? That's geographers for you."

    Probably.

    Similar issues around naming/spelling of places.

    In the early days of OS people went round asking the locals what things were called.

    They seem to have paid more attention to the more educated members of the community...

    https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books

    Posted 7 years ago #
  16. rider73
    Member

    open for full crossing today - shame it was raining again.
    still chatted to a guy on a SS specialized :-)
    the bump on the bridge dislodged my rear crud catcher and destroyed it! just when i needed it the most in the rain! soggy bottoms .....

    Posted 7 years ago #
  17. AKen
    Member

    The Wikipedia article on "where does the river actually start" is interesting and has some nice pictures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_source

    Posted 7 years ago #
  18. ejstubbs
    Member

    Interesting article. Using the "the most distant point (along watercourses from the river mouth) in the drainage basin from which water runs" definition would, I reckon, put the source of the Forth somewhere on the southern slopes of An Caisteal, at the source of one of the tributaries of the River Larig which then flows, via Loch Doine and Loch Voil, to Balquidder where it becomes the River Balvag. That in turns flows in to Loch Lubnaig south of Strathyre, then emerges as the Garbh Uisge ("Rough Water") which flows through the Pass of Leny to Kilmahog. The Eas Gobhain ("Blacksmith's Falls"?) flowing out of Loch Venachar joins the Garbh Uisge at Callander to form the River Teith, which joins the "Old Forth" just outside Stirling, and thence to the sea. It looks to me as if the Balquidder route goes round two sides of a triangle to get to Callander, compared to the more direct route of the waters emerging above Glen Gyle and flowing to Callander via Loch Katrine and the Trossachs, so should therefore be longer.

    I found the BBC piece linked from that Wiki article, about the source of the Thames, quite amusing. The River Thames Society's argument for Thames Head being the source seems to be that they put a lot of effort in to writing a Thames Path guide book that goes there:

    "I'm not really sure there's a huge amount to be gained from trying to designate Seven Springs as the source unless or until people can organise some kind of pathway that walks the whole length of the River Churn up to Seven Springs."

    Er, I'm not sure that geography works like that...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  19. minus six
    Member

    i am in Hamburg all this week where the cycling is fantastic

    no attempted comparison appropriate... das ist immer alles

    Posted 7 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "

    However, the new bridge was only open for two days last week and extra traffic is expected as more motorists take the opportunity to cross it for the first time.

    No official traffic figures have been published, but it is thought that as many as 100,000 vehicles may have crossed on the first day last Wednesday, compared to the 80.000 average on the Forth Road Bridge.

    Tailbacks of at least five miles built up in each direction.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/warning-of-more-long-delays-when-queensferry-crossing-re-opens-tomorrow-1-4552787

    Posted 7 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    TRAFFIC is queuing on the approaches to The Queensferry Crossing hours after it reopened. It is reported queues stretching back to the M90 at Masterton and Pitreavie, while STV said police have also been called after several drivers were reported for using the bus lane on the bridge.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/huge-delays-as-queensferry-crossing-reopens-1-4553217

    Posted 7 years ago #
  22. PS
    Member

    Having driven over the new bridge northbound on Thursday evening I'd say that the principle problem is (obviously) driver behaviour.

    in addition to the usual slow down in traffic flow caused by lane swapping, the prime cause of congestion appeared to be the use of the junction with the A904 (the Linlithgow road) where 4 or 5 lanes were getting funnelled into the 2 opn the bridge. To add to the fun, folk (inc HGVs) were using the long exit lane for that junction to jump the queue, leaving the main carriageway to go up over the top of the junction and rejoining the road just in front of the bridge.

    To be honest, if drivers can't use the (expensive) infrastructure they're given in a sensible and considerate way then we really should stop spending money on these sorts of projects for them.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    Or

    "if drivers can't use the (expensive) infrastructure they're given in a sensible and considerate way then we really should stop spending money on these sorts of projects"

    Posted 7 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    I assume (LARGE questionmark) that it'll be fine when PT gets to use Other Bridge.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  25. Min
    Member

    Schadenfreude is wrong isn't it?

    Yes I know.

    hehehehe

    Posted 7 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    It'll be fine when they can all do 70mph.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  27. Min
    Member

    There are several comments on the BBC article to exactly that effect! (I know I shouldn't but I did anyway) How they think they are going to move at 70mph when they can't move at all is unexplained.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41179548

    Posted 7 years ago #
  28. crowriver
    Member

    From Polis:

    “Those who are travelling to the crossing for non-essential journeys are asked to consider very careful the timings of their visit and whether their journey is necessary."

    FTFY, PC Copper.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  29. duncans
    Member

    So, the bus lane signage has been updated.


    Not as desirable as a proper cycle lane, but marginally better than nowt.

    Did my complaints on this have an effect? Difficult to say, the responses I got from Transport Scotland were weasel words and evasion.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  30. minus six
    Member

    @duncans

    the bus lane has been coned off for millenia, hasn't it ?

    i used to use it anyway, til i got a three inch rusty nail thru my tyre

    lane not maintained

    Posted 7 years ago #

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