CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Loading Bays

(20 posts)
  • Started 7 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from slowcoach

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Following on from a musing on the Roseburn thread. Is there a definition of 'loading' for Loading Bays anywhere?

    I assume popping into a shop for a bag of crisps doesn't count. Does parking a takeaway car while you wait for orders to come in count?

    This morning near the zoo (on the opposite side) there's a construction site that had two large lorries completely blocking the bus lane. Now they were loading, but is there therefore another thought that they should only be doing so outside of rush hour, given they were totally blocking a lane on a key 'arterial' route?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  2. Stickman
    Member

    Funny, I was going to ask the exact same thing! As well as the Roseburn bays, those at Western Corner are always occupied - I noticed it again yesterday which was the prompt for me asking.

    Google didn't yield anything definitive. The best I could find was something along the lines of "continuous loading/unloading of heavy or bulky goods", which would rule out a bacon roll.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  3. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Great minds and all that....

    I should say I'm not just mentioning this out of sour grapes. Heading through Gorgie you either end up zig-zagging in and out of the cars parked in the combined cycle lane / loading bays, or hold a very strong primary if there's only a gap of 50 yards or so to the next parked car, so let's face it, you're impacting on the traffic flow, as well as having to put yourself into the midst of the traffic - not exactly the type of situation to encourage people onto bikes.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  4. HankChief
    Member

    The Roseburn website has a page on it and link to CEC'S leaflet on it.

    Stickman has got it right though. The words continuous and bulky or heavy are the key points.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Right, I might start with the Gorgie route as that's the worst I've seen.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    I expect the answer is here somewhere -

    http://www.transport.gov.scot/report/j185500-12.htm

    Slightly related -

    "

    If there are premises adjacent to a mandatory cycle lane which are only accessible from that lane, any TRO prohibiting waiting and loading during the working day can prevent access for up to 8 hours a day. As an alternative, cycle lanes can operate for limited time periods only, for example only peak periods, if this eases access or parking problems. Mandatory cycle lane signs would then need to be used in conjunction with the appropriate time plate. Neither situation should be considered ideal, and both would require approval from Scottish Ministers. It is recommended that alternatives to mandatory cycle lanes are considered where waiting and loading is to be accommodated.

    "

    http://www.transport.gov.scot/report/j185500-12.htm#a.3.1

    Posted 7 years ago #

  7. Roibeard
    Member

    I've researched this based on receiving a penalty notice in a loading bay. I thought I was loading, the parking attendant thought otherwise and they were right, so I paid up and haven't abused a loading bay since.

    Case law has established that loading must be continuous and must require bulky/heavy goods. My goods weren't bulky or heavy...

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  8. Roibeard
    Member

    If there are premises adjacent to a mandatory cycle lane which are only accessible from that lane, any TRO prohibiting waiting and loading during the working day can prevent access for up to 8 hours a day. As an alternative, cycle lanes can operate for limited time periods only, for example only peak periods, if this eases access or parking problems.

    Of course, the other solution is to have a cycle track (i.e. segregated), so that the vehicle can be legally parked on the carriageway without blocking the (mandatory) cycle track...

    Or run the mandatory cycle lane inside the approved loading bay, or...

    It doesn't need to be cyclists or loading, it can be both, but this is beyond the ken of (Motorised) Transport Scotland.

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  9. fimm
    Member

    Roibeard, I hope you will take it the right way when I say that it is good to hear that loading bays are (sometimes) enforced!

    I agree with W.C. that Gorgie is terrible for this sort of thing. I am sure that I am seeing more cars parked on the zigzags of the pedestrian crossings as well.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  10. neddie
    Member

    Bruntsfield Pl at the top of Leamington Walk:

    This has to be the most ridiculous loading bay ever. Too narrow for any car to park in without blocking the cycle lane. And the cycle lane is literally in the door-zone.

    IMAG0880 by Ed, on Flickr

    IMAG0881 by Ed, on Flickr

    PS. The Taxi man was nowhere to be seen - certainly nothing "continuous" happening there

    Posted 7 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    Must be designed for load bikes. CEC is so forward thinking.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "The words continuous and bulky or heavy are the key points."

    So that rules out taxis picking up passengers then(?)

    Posted 7 years ago #

  13. neddie
    Member

    I suppose you could argue that the modern obese Scot is heavy and bulky

    Posted 7 years ago #

  14. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Waiting, Loading and Parking are all ill-defined in most texts. But loading specifically requires the activity - and the vehicle - to be 'in use'. Waiting is different from Loading because the vehicle is not in use. Waiting is also different from Parking because the driver is required to be in the vehicle and the vehicle's presence requires a purpose not related to the driver. Using a loading bay for 'popping in to the shop' or 'just making a phone call' is not Loading or Waiting, it's Parking.

    But road markings also dictate whether you can stop or not, and wait or not, or load or not. Loading that's prohibited for some period of a day or week or month gets a single bar across the kerb. A prohibition if more than four months gets two bars.

    Edit: TSRGD says:

    "6.3 Standard exemptions to a waiting prohibition are not shown on the signs. These exemptions include stopping to pick up or set down passengers, and causing a vehicle to be stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading goods from that vehicle.

    Loading generally refers to commercial loading or to objects that are too heavy or bulky to be carried very far by hand, but does not include time for purchasing the goods.

    Where loading is not permitted, additional signs are provided. These have a white background, to contrast with the yellow “no waiting” signs. Disabled badge holders are permitted to park for up to three hours where there is a waiting, but not a loading prohibition. Where a length of road is not suitable for parking by disabled badge holders, a prohibition of loading should be considered. However, if a loading provision is necessary, a loading bay should be provided as this cannot be used by disabled badge holders.

    A prohibition of loading still permits drivers to pick up and set down passengers."

    Posted 7 years ago #

  15. Stickman
    Member

    @Arrelcat:

    Thanks, that's the most comprehensive explanation I've seen. And I'd never understood the distinction with "Waiting" so that was helpful as well!

    Safe to say, these are ignored almost everywhere.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  16. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Arellcat, you are a star.

    p.s. you have a doppelganger somewhere in Edinburgh. Saw her yesterday and was so convinced I was about to shout a hale and hearty good morrow. And then as I drew in breath realised I was mistaken. Virtually twinlike however.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  17. acsimpson
    Member

    @Arellcat, Presumably that means that taxi's are allowed to stop pretty much anywhere to pick up or release passengers. Unless there is a specific no stopping restriction.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  18. neddie
    Member

    The Copenhagen compromise (doesn't look that great to me):

    http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entry/the-great-copenhagen-loading-zone-compromise

    Posted 7 years ago #

  19. acsimpson
    Member

    It looks an lot better than a painted bike lane squashed between fast traffic and a door zone for vehicles parked in loading bays like we get here.

    I wonder if the compromise involves avoiding rush hour.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  20. slowcoach
    Member

    some late comments in reply to Arrelcat and TSRGD. That quote is from Traffic Signs Manual (TSM) Chapter 3 2008, rather than the TSRGD (the new version of which came out earlier this year). "Mandatory
    requirements are set out in the current version of
    the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions;
    nothing in the Manual can override these." There are some errors and omissions in TSM and things which have been superseded. E.G. In the passage quoted above the 3 hour restriction on blue badges doesn't apply in Scotland and some exemptions for blue badges don't apply in central London.
    I'm not sure about the exemption for drivers stopping to pick-up drop-off passengers. Some Traffic Regulation Orders (TRO) specifically allow it even where loading is prohibited, other TROs don't mention it. Whether it is not mentioned is because it is banned or because it is allowed under other legislation/case law/? I don't know.
    Some TROs that permit loading specify that it is only by goods vehicles. I've heard old case law that loading could include collecting a newspaper which had been ordered from a shop, but not going in to buy one which wasn't ordered. Some TROs also include time limits on loading or limits on how long the vehicle can be left without un/loading actually happening (eg to allow driver to get delivery note signed).
    Is there really a difference in law between "waiting" and "parking"? TSRGD might have increased confusion on this by including the phrase "Road markings for stopping, waiting, loading and parking controls".

    Posted 7 years ago #

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