"Network Rail isn't exactly world class either"
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16358&page=5#post-237727
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"Mayhem" (the new word for chaos) + added “shambles”
(231 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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Comparisons with Kintore and the South Sub aren't really fair - it takes a lot less money to open a new station on a line that's currently being upgraded anyway than to establish an entirely new line (possibly as a pioneer project for tram-trains in the UK.)
If more people can walk/cycle to a train to go to work rather than driving to Inverurie (or more likely into a city centre) then great. Maybe with a few more of these projects they won't feel the need to build their new bypass.
Oh.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"Comparisons with Kintore and the South Sub aren't really fair"
What's fair got to do with anything!
You're of course right about a new station being relatively easy (to justify) on a line that's being upgraded.
You're right about scale of costs, but I wonder about the 'cost per potential passenger'.
Some past reports on the South Sub concluded that 'it would just take passengers using the 38 bus' - so not worth the money.
They also mentioned freight - which has now reduced significantly because of power station closures.
The other problem was signalling around Haymarket - perhaps EGIP dealt with that??
This was all before they built the Borders line, which could/should mean possibilities of trains to/from Borders bypassing Waverley/Haymarket. But obviously they'd have to find some more trains too...
Maybe Humza can make it happen...
Posted 7 years ago # -
Since privatisation in 1995, the ROSCOs have faced criticism from a number of quarters - including passenger train operating companies such as GNER, Arriva and FirstGroup - on the basis that they are acting as an oligopoly to keep lease prices higher than would be the case in a more competitive market.
The ROSCOs are effectively financial services organisations that happen to grudgingly own some trains. It's hardly surprising HSBC, Lloyds/Abbey National (Porterbrook) and RBS (Angel Trains) were the movers behind the big 3 at privatisation.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The ROSCOs are effectively financial services organisations that happen to grudgingly own some trains."
In another universe they'd be told 'you've made your money, now hand back the rolling stock, or...'
In this universe it might be worth a serious assessment as to how well the book value of the assets equates to the real value of the trains, to see if an offer could be made.
Of course a general shortage of rolling stock keeps the rental value up - a bit like housing.
It would probably be easier for the SG to buy some trains and supply to whoever runs ScotRail at a 'reasonable' price(??)
Posted 7 years ago # -
"it takes a lot less money to open a new station on a line that's currently being upgraded anyway than to establish an entirely new line"
Last time I checked the South Sub line was open - for freight.
Also last time I checked the South Sub line was being upgraded, or due to be - again, for freight.So, the main stumbling block is a lack of station halts, and no passenger services currently running on the line, except in extremis - see the recent Haymarket/Waverley "mayhem" at the top of the thread.
Are there capacity/scheduling issues which prevent, for example Borders rail services routing via the South Sub? Possibly, but it is all rather unclear.
Posted 7 years ago # -
The work done on re-opening the south sub would be a significant proportion of what would need to be done to open a new line from scratch - total track and signalling renewal, for example. Hopefully the upgrade might reduce this but who knows? Loads of modelling work required too, to understand how the service should actually be run in order to get enough passengers to be economical and how to get an extra 4-5 trains an hour through the already at-capacity Princes Street Gardens. (I don't think adding 20-30 minutes to the already borderline journey-time-competitive Borders line trains is the way to do it unfortunately.)
Putting in a new station is really just a case of making sure it can fit in the timetable, making sure the business case is there, and then building it.
That's not to say I wouldn't love a passenger South Sub ASAP - it's just the two projects are radically different in scale and complexity and not really comparable.
Posted 7 years ago # -
It would probably be easier for the SG to buy some trains and supply to whoever runs ScotRail at a 'reasonable' price(??)
It doesn't really have the capital budget headroom to do that.
It does, however, have the option to buy the new Hitachi electric fleet for £1 once the lease expires (25 years).
Posted 7 years ago # -
It does, however, have the option to buy the new Hitachi electric fleet for £1 once the lease expires (25 years).
Given the longeivity of electric units, this could be a good buy. Scotrail's oldest (leased) EMUs were built in 1979, and will likely make their 40th birthdays. Glasgow's 1st generation electric units, the "Blue Trains" made it to 42. Scotrail has a further 50 electric and 98 diesel units in the 25-30 year old bracket many of which are in the long term retention plans and recently refurbished.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I presume the point is that it will have already paid for them through huge lease payments (and so would be mad not to buy them at the end, even if only to sell on) not that they'll be past it.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Indeed; point I was trying to get to was we'd likely get another 15(+?) years out of them if they were retained. I'm sure the financials are otherwise loaded heavily in favour of the ROSCOs. That's assuming the new trains are built like they were in the olden days and haven't turned to rust by then.
Posted 7 years ago # -
An orbital service can work, just depends on numbers. The underground in Glasgow is basically profitable in the section from the centre to hill head. Lightly used thereafter outwith morning rush but goes all the way round in both clockwork orange and anti clockwork orange directions
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
As the political and media storm continues to rage over ScotRail, there’s a danger that what’s most important to passengers is being overlooked.
Both the Scottish Government and opposition parties are becoming increasingly desperate to win the propaganda war. The SNP is anxious to highlight what they are doing right, while the Conservatives and Labour attempt to emphasise what’s going wrong.
Transport minister Humza Yousaf was at a photocall this week for a train refurbishment project - which started last year and hasn’t even finished.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
There was more chaos on Friday. Caused by unfortunate people being struck by trains apparently: one in Broughty Ferry closed the line north of Dundee in the morning; another later near Edinburgh apparently.
The fact that people lost their lives certainly put my small delays to and from Dundee into perspective. Not a lot anyone can do about these tragic incidents.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
ScotRail has admitted breaking a pledge that its busiest rush-hour trains will not miss station stops.
The train operator confirmed some such services have cut out stops.
ScotRail was unable to provide figures yesterday, but claimed the number was “miniscule”.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
Scotrail always misses out Currie hill for the 745 AM to Glasgow but its timetabled to do so, only hour of the day no train.
Under the old British rail priority scotrail has to give away to the long distance virgin trains, as scotrail runs trains that have to give way then a late virgin, gner etc train makes scotrail late
Many times I have been on an on time train heading from livi south and train has to pull in to let a late virgin past.
I do wonder if the old priority should be scrapped as long distance trains are not as relevant as when rules came in long ago.
If going to London on a train either someone clowning around on expenses account, A student with a third of ( although doubtful when I was student would be bus) or a pensioner with a 1/3 off spending there state subsidies final salary pension after a life time of idling, sitting around smoking in there computer less office , with the political pricing of trains the long distance train is not a serious proposition as too expensive, it’s a frivolous way to travel when can get the bus to London for a £10 or the plane for £20.
As regional transport the train still makes sense. So if someone on long distance train probably just money to waste in some gov type or gov protected industry banking, law, scotgov, etc getting fat at the public expense wasting money. So therefore think the virgin should have to wait and those awful people on expense accounts or those idle pensioners should have to wait behind the slow train when their train is late.
Posted 7 years ago # -
. So therefore think the virgin should have to wait and those awful people on expense accounts or those idle pensioners should have to wait.
Not sure if serious....
Frankly that reasoning suggests that poor people on bicycles should be made to take round about slow paths to keep out of the way of important busy people in their cars.
Posted 7 years ago # -
On the contrary poor people on bicycles should not have to give way, its poor people on scotrail train that have to give way to the yuppies or rich pensioner on the long distance virgin train no one that works for a living can afford a long distance train -)
Posted 7 years ago # -
Okaaay.
Frankly I never fly and there is plenty of places in the UK that are far easier/cheaper/possible to get to by long distance rail than flying the UK is not London, London is not the only place that one can travel too. I've never paid more than a tenner to get to the lakes and that is often on your much maligned London train.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Ed1 - the average civil service pension in less than £6000 per year, with average NHS pensions being just slightly higher. I imagine local government is even less.
It's easy to criticise the public sector for waste - but it seems far harder for people to point out where money can actually be saved. I know many public sector workers who work additional hours every day, with no expectation of ever being paid for it. Across the UK, this probably saves the taxpayer billions of pounds a year.
Just look what happens when the private sector tries to provide public services, they are often an expensive disaster.
Posted 7 years ago # -
It's easy to criticise the public sector for waste - but it seems far harder for people to point out where money can actually be saved.
I've worked for both public bodies and in the private sector. In my experience budget discipline is far, far tighter in the public sector. The NDPB I last worked for had waste but it was at the level of the odd bunch of flowers. Private sector companies I know well have hosed millions on the basis of complete misunderstandings.
Posted 7 years ago # -
If going to London on a train either someone clowning around on expenses account, A student with a third of ( although doubtful when I was student would be bus) or a pensioner with a 1/3 off spending there state subsidies final salary pension after a life time of idling, sitting around smoking in there computer less office , with the political pricing of trains the long distance train is not a serious proposition as too expensive, it’s a frivolous way to travel when can get the bus to London for a £10 or the plane for £20.
Well, that's a point of view, I suppose...
Posted 7 years ago # -
A quick search shows I could travel Edinburgh->London for £32.50 by train in January. Not bad, especially when tax, transport to from airports etc is taken into consideration. Walk-up prices are an entirely different story of course ... then again, good luck on paying walk-up prices for a plane :)
As a student I used to get the bus Edinburgh->Newcastle: it took 3.5 hours, vs 1.5 hours by train .. it was cheaper though!
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
“A signaller set the route onto a diesel-only line at Haymarket depot from platform 0 at Haymarket Station, which has no overhead wires.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
Trains to Edinburgh last night massively delayed after someone was hit by a train. I arrived at Linlithgow station 6pm and decided to ride home along the canal. Got home to Leith ~8.30. According to my colleague this morning the first train got to Linlithgow ~9pm. So even with the winding bumpy route home I beat the train and got to listen to a few good albums along the way.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Disruption to trains on the Livingston North line on Friday meant I cycled to Livingston South. I really must make a note of the best route for this as Friday's choice was definitely the wrong one! Still, at least I got to chat with a fellow bike-train-bike commuter.
(I had for some reason thought it was this incident: scooter thrown at train; but re-reading the article it turns out that was on Thursday.)
Posted 7 years ago #
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