CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Review of Scotland's hate crime laws

(13 posts)

  1. neddie
    Member

    Lord Bracadale has now been asked by the government to ensure all of the country's hate crime legislation is fit for the 21st century.

    His independent review will start on 30 January, and is expected to last up to 12 months - after which the judge will present his recommendations to the Scottish government.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38756144

    ...He was also tasked with looking at whether new categories of hate crime should be created for characteristics such as age and gender, which are not currently covered.

    Should hatred directed towards cyclists* be added to those catagories? Should we campaign for cyclists to be included?

    *Or any other "transport mode choice" for that matter.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. Rosie
    Member

    @eddie_h - Hey, don't do that. I want to be able to shout at crap drivers.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. jonty
    Member

    No. Hatred based on something you do is not the same as hatred based on something you are.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. acsimpson
    Member

    So there are no bad drivers. Just bad driving. After all it's reasonable to assume that everyone who passed a test has proven they are not a bad driver.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. neddie
    Member

    Hatred based on something you do is not the same as hatred based on something you are.

    So why is hatred towards a particular religion classed as a hate crime? Religion is something you do*, not something you are.

    *Obviously, if you've been indoctrinated as a child, it might be hard to get out of or change, right enough.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. jonty
    Member

    I'm not religious myself but I'm led to understand that there's generally a bit more to it than just turning up every week.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. unhurt
    Member

    Plus religion is about more than just belief - I'm an atheist, but if someone decided to attack people they percieved as being affiliated to the Church of Scotland I'd likely be identified as falling under that umbrella regardless of my actual beliefs due to family connections, culture I was raised in etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. neddie
    Member

    Hatred directed towards cyclists almost certainly leads directly or indirectly to an increase in the number of cyclists killed or seriously injured.

    I'd argue that hatred towards any minority (or even majority) group is a bad thing, regardless of whether that group is "something you are" or "something you do".

    Members of this forum complain regularly about cycling hate-pieces written in the press.

    Should it be written into law that's it's not OK to attack minority groups, regardless of why they are a group, regardless of any basis behind the attack, or is it just "freedom of speech" to persecute cyclists?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Hate crimes are often committed against people because the perpetrator mistakenly thinks they are gay / Muslim / Polish etc. Differing interpretations of what hate crime covers may extend it to subcultures e.g. goth / emo / punk etc.

    If you attack someone because they are, (or you think they are) gay or Muslim is that any less hatefully intolerant than because they have dressed in a particular way to express a subculture? Personally, I don't think so.

    Where do we draw the line? I just don't know. Perhaps if you can categorically demonstrate the prejudice against (or encouraging others to) cyclists then it could be? Ultimately I think toughened up and better enforced road traffic laws are what are required though, not classing spurious media drivel as a hate crime.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. jonty
    Member

    There is historical context to consider as well. Cyclists were not once traded as slaves, denied the vote or routinely chemically castrated. For hate crime to have any meaning, it can't just be 'saying nasty things about someone who is part of a group.' While I accept that there is much injustice in the way cyclists are treated in the UK and they are the subject of some prejudice, I can't accept that that prejudice is comparable to that which is covered by existing hate legislation.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. Morningsider
    Member

    Technically, there is no such thing as a hate crime in Scotland - but certain offences can be aggravated by prejudice against "protected characterisitcs" (race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity). Such aggravation can lead to harsher punishment for offenders.

    This might seem to be splitting hairs - but it is an important point. No-one receives "extra" protection from the law. However, harsher punishments can be handed out to those found guilty of acting on prejudice against groups that are particularly vulnerable or have suffered historic abuse.

    The protected characteristics are defined in law. The list can be amended. Adding cyclists to this list would be both pointless (current maximum punishments for offences against cyclists are effectively never used anyway) and ridiculous (cycling is a way of getting around and not some inherent characteristic).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. paddyirish
    Member

    Agree that hate crimes is not the right way to go for reasons outlined above.

    "All" that is really required for cyclists is that traffic (and occasionally criminal) laws are enforced and perpetrators realise that there is a good chance of being caught/prosecuted.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. unhurt
    Member

    What jonty said. Thank you!

    Look, I care about people hating cyclists. But get back to me on the hate crimes when the leader of the most powerful country on earth signs an executive order barring cyclists from seven nations where they make up the majority of the population, leaving them - and hundreds of thousands (probably many more) of his own citizens and residents who are or care about cyclists - in fear and concern for their futures.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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