CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"Why Britain needs to do more to get children cycling"
(26 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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People like me who skip from job to job competing for each one see young people as a threat to our livelihoods. It's in my interest for them to be fat and useless until I retire and need them to look after me.
That's just an extreme version of the general attitude that children are future consumers rather than current citizens.
The trip to school thing is an excellent chink in anyone's anti-car armour and probably where all cycle campaigners should direct their united fire.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Odense, Denmark's second city claims 81% of children cycle to school
They have built 350 miles of track.
The primary school near me is at a point furthest from nearly all the housing. If parents drove to work instead of the school the roads would be empty and the kids could walk or cycle and everyone would be happy. Instead about two families cycle.
Similarly, the paths in Livingston could be chocker with kids cycling to school as they go through the new town away from the roads. The planners had envisaged walking and cycling but it did not happen due to carmageddon.
Linking to the Where did you first cycle thread, after you first learnt to cycle, what did you do? Me I cycled everywhere for the next 8 years. When we moved to Ayr I was going to cycle to see my granny every weekend, my dad let me try this out, the route had some fierce bad roads, I remember the wind on the Ayr bypass (early one morning before cars were up). My point being that this 30 mile trip was not inconceivable to a punk kid barely in his teens back in 1979. These days you stray on to a main road (e.g. Dalkeith yesterday) and you get shouted at by the mad men.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Victoria Hazael, from the campaign group Cycling UK, says it is more common for schools to discourage bike use tacitly.
“Sometimes schools will say, ‘The problem we’ve got at our school is that there are just too many cars at the school gate.’
So, basically, the schools realise the roads outside the school aren't safe ... and do nothing about it.
Just another example of those in power abdicating that power. It's the standard MO in today's Britain.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo, the schools don't own the roads outside their schools, the parents do. Well that would appear to be the mentality.
The chilling stat in the article is that child road deaths are not down because children are better at walking through traffic, thanks to look right, look left, look right again. No the deaths are down because all children are driven to school.
On a positive the 20's Plenty is a mild way of indicating to a populace that something has to change.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The trip to school thing is an excellent chink in anyone's anti-car armour and probably where all cycle campaigners should direct their united fire."
I probably used to believe that, but I don't think I do anymore.
"
In countries where decades of investment in bike routes has made cycling safer and more everyday, the reverse is true. Almost 40% of Dutch children go to and from school by bike.
"
So, not primarily routes to school.
I've been involved in 'safe routes to school' stuff for 20 years. Sustrans has done LOTS.
CEC used to have a working group though it was unwilling to adopt the simple and aspirational srts - it had to be safeR.
I also used to believe that all children should get cycle proficiency training. To do this properly shouldn't have to rely on volunteers. Paid trainers would do it regularly and ought to become highly proficient - also many schools can't get volunteers.
This is now known as Bikeability and the responsibility of Cycling Scotland. Successive SGs have refused to provide enough money to pay trainers.
In Edinburgh there was a fairly comprehensive programme that introduced physical traffic calming around many schools and put racks in nearly all schools and has now begun to roll out 'school streets'.
But still the number of children cycling to most schools is very low.
Individual schools could do a lot more, but they have many other things to deal with.
They are usually happy to allow 'projects' run by Sustrans (and others). These can be great, but after they are over there is often not much continuity/sustainability.
Schools need to be just destinations that are easy to cycle to when cycling is just the normal way of getting around.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gembo
@gibbo, the schools don't own the roads outside their schools,
I know, but they can kick up a hell of a stink about dangerous roads outside schools.
The media laps this stuff up, so getting coverage wouldn't be a problem.
Then use that to lean on the local politicians. And what are the politicians do? Say, "Screw the kids"?
How hard is that?
All it takes, as always, is willingness.
But, as ever, they just pass the buck...
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo, I guess such a campaign might take some time and meet with some resistance from parent drivers. Teacher drivers, local councillor drivers etc
What a teacher is looking for on the morning is all his or her class in a line waiting to come in to school to learn some stuff. However, they may well have a pre 8.30 meeting with parents, they may be phoning looking for a kid, or a kids pack lunch etc, there might be issues to sort out from the playground, kids fighting, parents fighting,
Teachers told to feck off b parents when they ask them not to park outside school not that uncommon.
I think Bruntsfield Primary have had some success. But enforcement is maybe required so if every school was doing to it would need a big resource.
However, parent council's involving the parent body in this sort of campaign might have a chance? Probably not.
The Danes, Dutch etc had politicians from the top down pushing cycling.
Here, even in Edinburgh, cyclists and cyclist parents are too thinly spread?
Afraid, not so easy.
Also if I were t stray into conspiracy theories, the petro chemical industry and the car manufacturers will not be keen on any of this. So plenty paid journalism criticising any scheme?
Posted 7 years ago # -
My eldest has just started school & after school club aren't keen on bikes. I can sympathise, carrying bikes/ shepherding kids of various ability, wouldn't be my idea of fun. It's the tag-a-long for now which can be dropped off at home. As an aside I'd shut the road outside school as a through road for 30 mins morning & afternoon to reduce car drop offs.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@osmond walls, yup, I think that is what Sciennes do. Also at home time? And maybe play time when they reclaim the street?
Very ingrained attitudes of drivers driving children to school, hard to shift.
Back in the Middle Ages when I learnt to cycle I also walked to school every day As did every other child in the village.
Now every child dropped off by car then parent drives a single occupant vehicle into Edinburgh. Instead of deterring this we now have multiple housing developments on green belt which is only going to increase volume of traffic. And despite the Gridlock that ensues, everyone joins the queue?
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gembo
@gibbo, I guess such a campaign might take some time and meet with some resistance from parent drivers. Teacher drivers, local councillor drivers etc
As I said, willingness.
Amsterdam didn't become Amsterdam because the local politicians decided to create cycling infrastructure the first time they were politely asked.
It took will.
That's what's missing here.
As for being told to eff off by parents ... seriously? You take that and just fold like a cheap suit? Then no wonder that's what you get.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Apparently, recruiting teachers at our local primary is difficult due to "lack of parking".
This from the headmaster, who is also a cyclist & fairly keen on active travel.
It seems teachers are having to drive in from places like Broxburn. I suppose your average teacher cannot afford to live nearby, or perhaps they don't fancy a one bed flat in Tollcross...
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo, both Amsterdam and copenhagen were top down, politicians deciding to create a better society not bottom up.
So the two or three schools who are doing this meet with rsistance, the other schools are as you say unwilling. The schools have plenty else to keep them busy.
The last politico we had with actual vision on active travel was Prof David Begg.
There was a tipping point when the politicians Welched and put the congestion charge to a referendum with inevitable results.
20's plenty would be the best we can get the politicians to go with.
My point is that in Amsterdam/Copenhagen, the politicians wanted to create a better society pressure groups didn't have to constantly fight to persuade them. The politicians and the pressure groups agreed.
Alas this is not our context.
See also the welching the CHDot refers to when safe routes to school was turned into safeR routes
Posted 7 years ago # -
@gibbo
What you forget about the Dutch is they are largely socialists and very pragmatic - they just get on with stuff, and do the best for the group as a whole. For example, employees are usually paid the most during the time of life when they need it most i.e. when raising a family.
Whereas here, it's just every man for himself - like a giant pile of rats all trying to get on top of one another
Posted 7 years ago # -
"both Amsterdam and copenhagen were top down, politicians deciding to create a better society not bottom up"
Also a degree of officials 'just doing stuff' without direct political sayso.
And doing more when no-one complained, or asked for more in their area.
Can't happen here, TROs...
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
“We took office on July 3rd, 1999,” Lores recalls. “And by August 6th, we’d already pedestrianised the historical centre.”
http://www.eco-business.com/news/how-a-city-in-spain-got-rid-of-its-cars/
Posted 7 years ago # -
@chdot
You clearly have put more effort into the school thing than most. I still think it's crucial, but....
What I think happened before was the campaigning happened without addressing the fact that children aren't viewed as citizens, just mice floundering in @nedd1e_h's giant pile of rats. Such campaigning could only ever have a cosmetic effect I fear.
There's no point in talking, no matter how eloquently, to anyone about a subject they're not interested in. You need to create the interest first.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The trip to school thing is an excellent chink in anyone's anti-car armour and probably where all cycle campaigners should direct their united fire."
Posted 7 years ago # -
Just reviving this because there seems to be a new interest in Ed in SR2S and Bike Buses.
Lost track of how many CCEers still have kids at primary schools, but I’m on ‘2nd generation’…
Posted 2 years ago # -
The idea of "safe routes to schools" really grinds my gears. How many streets in Edinburgh aren't used by kids going to and from school? Apart from a few major roads and roads within industrial estates I would guess almost none. Are the proponents of "safe routes to schools" proposing to make every street safe for kids to walk and cycle on?
No.
In which case, they don't really care about safety. Any parent will tell you that unless the whole route between home and school is safe, then none of it is safe. It does sound good though "safe routes to schools", who could argue with that?
I'll tell you what it means in practice though - taking the school I know best (South Morningside Primary). We asked for a zebra crossing on Braid Road, but it was turned down due to a flawed traffic survey stating it was not busy enough. We didn't qualify for a school street as Comiston Road is an arterial route. Proposed improvements to pavements/crossings on Greenbank Drive have been talked about since mini-Morningsider was in P1, he is now about to go into S2 and nothing has happened. Temporary measures on Braid Road have been watered down and are about to be ripped out following a campaign effectively led by the now TEC Convenor.
In my experience, any politician who starts banging on about "safe routes to schools" or raising concerns about pedestrians simply intends to do nothing. See the Tories bleating about SfP. Did any improvements for pedestrians or disabled people actually happen? No - entire schemes were just ripped out and the status quo resumed.
Cynical - yes. I would love to be proved wrong. Bet I won't.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Agree.
But that’s part of the point.
The words are leading to no/insignificant/inadequate action.
Needs to be called out (more).
I’m hoping that the new T Committee will actually have people on it who ‘care’ and see the need to do more/better - perhaps more so than new Chair…
The current ‘process’ is to produce Active Travel Plans for individual schools. Either they are not good/comprehensive enough or they are not getting implemented. Haven’t seen one for a while, so don’t know where the problems are.
On a sideways note, I’m moderately optimistic about Bike Buses. There aren’t that many, they are only once or twice a month but participants like them and politicians are beginning to notice.
Perhaps there will be twice as many next year?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Of course one issue that messes things up is catchment areas - size and shape.
Not expecting too many changes there…
Posted 2 years ago # -
The current ‘process’ is to produce Active Travel Plans for individual schools. Either they are not good/comprehensive enough or they are not getting implemented.
More reports, more data, more analysis, more better. The clever thing is, this process takes so long that the environmental conditions on which they are based changes faster, which means the outcomes are perpetually out of date, and by continually pressing for more, newer reports, you can neatly avoid having to actually do anything involving bricks and mortar.
Posted 2 years ago # -
There does seem to be some truth in that…
Posted 2 years ago # -
School travel plans are pointless. Think where they stand in the hierarchy of plans:
National Transport Strategy, National Planning Framework
Regional Transport Strategy, Regional Spatial Strategy
Local Transport Strategy, Local Development Plan
Local Place Planthen
School travel plan
It has no budget, no statutory basis and no-one responsible for its implementation. It takes longer to develop than the three year term of a school parent council member, rendering continuity of development and implementation almost impossible. Even when it is finished, most parents at the school will have no idea it even exists.
In my limited experience (Algo is the person to speak to about this), those parents engaged in transport issues are far better focusing on getting something done, no matter how small, rather than in adding to the pile of unread transport documents.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yes
Posted 2 years ago #
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