CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

"Makeover for 'unsafe and unfriendly' Princes St"

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "
    DESIGN gurus called in to help revitalise Edinburgh city centre have told council chiefs to curb the number of buses on Princes Street and reduce car parking spaces on George Street.

    Pavements would be widened, new cycle lanes created and side streets given over to festival venues under plans to help the heart of the capital better compete with out-of-town shopping centres.
    "
    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Makeover-for-39unsafe-and-unfriendly39.6648409.jp

    And the council will pay attention?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    oh I thought this was going to recommend filling inbetween the rails

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "oh I thought this was going to recommend filling inbetween the rails"

    That may well come...

    ONE of the original notions behind the tram was that there would be no buses on Princes Street - people were 'expected' to get on and off at Haymarket and the east end somewhere.

    Edinburgh is 'unable' to embrace the idea of restricting traffic more in the city centre!

    (It probable couldn't really handle the idea of a night time cafe culture either...)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. PS
    Member

    That's a somewhat misleading headline.

    Buses are the problem here. We've got a really good bus service across town, but the network is designed around buses passing along either George Street or Princes Street. There must be something like 25 services that pass through the First New Town, which is an awful lot of buses at any given time of day. So, where could you put all those services?

    Hopefully not George Street, as it really wasn't a pleasant place to be when the tramworks diverted buses onto it. It would be far better served as a pedestrianised areas as well - it would make a fine urban space, especially the central blocks.

    Queen Street? A better bet perhaps, but Lothian Buses won't like that as people will need to walk up a hill to get to the shops and we all know that people aren't prepared to walk more than 100 yards. And obviously motorist won't take to their 6 lane highway being blocked by buses setting folk down.

    I'm looking forward to reading this report. I take it the Council will also be able to publish its consultation on the city centre pedestrianisation options soon?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. SRD
    Moderator

    Having lived in Oxford where they got rid of many of the 'through' buses we have thought that one of best things about Edinburgh's buses was that you didn't need to 'transfer'. Would be very disappointed if they changed the system to reduce through buses. This would also require major changes to (very simple) fares too.

    Not sure about the idea that pavements should be widened either - the Princes Street ones are very wide, which is good, but do they need to be wider? Maybe George St they do.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. PS
    Member

    Princes Street's pavements are very wide already, but I suppose if you're going to let cafes/bars have outside tables then you'd need to widen them to compensate. The pavements can get pretty full on busy shopping days.

    Widening the pavements would also allow space for a dedicated off-road cycle lane.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. wingpig
    Member

    George St. usually seems wide enough, even when shopper-infested. PS would be wide enough if it weren't for the failed multifunctionality, with not enough bandwidth for walking-people and shopping-bumbling and standing-at-bus-stops at the pinch points and crossings. If people could queue straight it would help. The Hanover St crossings are the worst and will probably only worsen when the tram goes on-line.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. druidh
    Member

    What they need is another pavement space in Princes St. How about designing all of the buildings with an external walkway above the current pavement? That would free up space on the "ground" floor for all of this cafe frippery.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "How about designing all of the buildings with an external walkway above the current pavement?" -

    "60's plan for a pavement in the sky

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. PS
    Member

    Those elevated walkways look just about wide enough for single file ped traffic either way. What on earth were they thinking? Jet packs and hovercars, I guess...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "Those elevated walkways look just about wide enough for single file ped traffic either way."

    I think they are wider than - but certainly not as wide as current PS paving

    "What on earth were they thinking? Jet packs and hovercars, I guess..."

    Well yes, and dual carriageway under PS, another one on stilts through The Meadows to (largely obliterated) Tollcross and more of the 'ring road' in place of Rocheid Path.

    Oh why couldn't Edinburgh be more like Glasgow...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. Smudge
    Member

    @chdot "Oh why couldn't Edinburgh be more like Glasgow... "
    Because then it would be even worse to cycle round and considerably more car biased? :-s

    Oh and I'd be able to get abuse/assaulted for wearing the wrong colour of clothes in certain parts of town? No thanks ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    But there might be a nice motorway on the canal...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. Arellcat
    Moderator

    What a splendid idea, ch! Fill in the canal, and make it into a cycle superduperhighway! With bollards and signs and gates everywhere, of course, to prevent people with engines, wheelchairs, tandems, snowmobiles, trikes...

    When Spokes helped pay for the design consultant recommendations for Princes St, didn't CEC wholeheartedly welcome such advice at the time, only for it to quietly bin the report soon after? Some might think CEC was only humouring any external advice.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. Smudge
    Member

    Far better to triple the width of the canal, run the existing width for the current users then allow up to 50knots in two opposing lanes with a minimum travelling speed of 25kn thus creating a motorway type waterway to relieve congestion on the M8... what could possibly go wrong...?
    ;-p

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    "Some might think CEC was only humouring any external advice."

    It 'humours' much of its internal advice too.

    Edinburgh has always been mostly conservative.

    Especially since the days of Lord Cockburn "He had a strong interest in architectural conservation, particularly of Edinburgh. The Cockburn Association (Edinburgh Civic Trust), founded in 1875, is named after him."

    But the Corporation/Council has always had a very mixed role in the development of the city. Inevitably it has depended on individuals and sections/departments - politicians and officials.

    And that's without thinking too much about straightforward commercial/ownership considerations.

    Some people think conservation is about lots of traffic but no red tarmac on ASLs in the historic centre. Others are more interested in developing The Gyle or The Waterfront.

    Things change, fashions change, people retire etc.

    Someone must have thought the St. James Centre was the height of modernity and 'a good thing' at one time.

    In many ways it's preferable to Fort Kinnaird etc. as it has a bus station attached (though that is a whole other saga!)

    Once upon a time Edinburgh had many breweries. Scottish and Newcastle was a major employer. Large beer tankers thundered through the Grassmarket and Cowgate. Residents had a hard time getting pedestrian crossings installed.

    I was told by a very senior planner that it was hard to do things that S&N might not like - 'they employ a lot of people and could move the jobs to Newcastle'.

    Of course similar things were said in Newcastle...

    Younger (sic) readers may not have heard of S&N...

    Now of course the 'commercial reality' is that large numbers of people come to Edinburgh to drink (hen tourists etc.) but almost none is produced here.

    It's so hard to plan for things running out - brewers or oil.

    If Edinburgh is to plan for more tourists (new 5 star hotel at Haymarket!) perhaps it should pay more attention to some serious traffic management/pedestrianisation.

    If only it had been possible to route 'the tram' along George Street and incorporate it into the new "St. James Quarter". Imagine a tram stop under the bus station!

    Such vision would have been easy in the 60s.

    Unfortunately Edinburgh has not always been good at 'delivery'. Sometimes being stuck in the past has its advantages.

    People really like living in Edinburgh. The challenge is to make it a bit better, not a lot worse.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Meanwhile -

    "
    A BAN on new pubs in the city centre and Leith's busiest streets could be imposed because of health concerns.

    City licensing chiefs have drawn up plans that could lead to a ban on new pubs and clubs in busy areas including George Street, Picardy Place, Lothian Road, Princes Street and the centre of Leith.
    "

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/New-pub-ban-set-to.6650102.jp

    I always thought there already was a ban on 'more pubs' in these areas.

    Still, there are enough to make more pavements/less traffic a good idea!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    but almost none is produced here

    But the little that is produced is much better than the industrial volumes of dishwater churned out by S&N!

    I know Stewart Brewing is technically in Midlothian, but they've recently announced an expansion plan and produce some very nice tipples (their Hollyrood (sic) is "World Champion" blonde beer)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "But the little that is produced is much better than the industrial volumes of dishwater churned out by S&N!"

    Well yes, but -

    "With the takeover of S&N, Heineken now control the Caledonian Brewery Company."

    Posted 13 years ago #

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