Tram markings plan to help cyclists in Edinburgh
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41428175
what is this shite and why is it embargoed to release at midnight on a friday night ?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Tram markings plan to help cyclists in Edinburgh
(170 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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Here's a video of Cllr Macinnes explaining it
https://twitter.com/EdinReporter/status/913640866559995904
Stage 1 of 4... more details here
http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2017/09/council-to-improve-road-safety-near-tram-tracks/
Posted 7 years ago # -
Oh dear. That saddens me.
The campaign will urge all road users to “look out for each other”, stressing the need for drivers to give cyclists ample space
Five minutes on this forum would show anyone that central Edinburgh is full of people driving cars who can't, or aren't interested in, even seeing people on bikes, let alone adapting their behaviour. The whole initiative depends on people behaving in ways they don't and won't unless they actually have to.
As for the video, well. Filmed in an office but talking about real objects less than a mile away. Squirting money on a marketing campaign no one will ever notice. Topping the whole performance off with the infallible cow poop klaxon 'going forward'.
(Full disclosure: I played drums with Infallible Cow Poop Klaxon in the late nineties.)
Posted 7 years ago # -
Should we not give credit for doing something only 4 months after the tragedy with more to come...
Yes it not as strong as we'd like but this isn't the end.
Spokes 4 stage suggestions here
Posted 7 years ago # -
Ah HankChief, you were not sardonic before you knew me. What have I done?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"and cyclists need to clearly signal - as early as possible - what they plan to do."
Anyone know what the signal is for this then? Seem to have forgotten that from my cycling proficiency.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@rust
Wingpig posted the signal elsewhere.
Posted 7 years ago # -
From the BBC article:-
"Edinburgh medical student Zhi Min Soh, 23, was killed in May in a collision with a minibus after her wheel became caught in the tracks on Princes Street."
I thought that it hadn't been established, that her wheel became caught. Was there a report from the Procurator Fiscal?
Posted 7 years ago # -
Reporter answers my question:-
"We were told that it had become apparent from an examination of CCTV footage that the medical student was crossing the tracks from Princes Street to enter Queensferry Street on her way to the Western General when her wheels became stuck in the tracks./2
Posted 7 years ago # -
Augh. AUGH.
(That's my considered response.)
Posted 7 years ago # -
That's my considered response
Beats mine which due to forum rules I'm unable to adequately express.
Posted 7 years ago # -
From the BBC article:
The markings will show the optimum angle for crossing the tracks
Er, no they won't. All the markings are at 45 degrees. The optimum angle is 90 degrees. The safe angles are 60 to 90 degrees.
Also, the Mound crossing is being left at 40 degrees. See:
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/7482382412/Posted 7 years ago # -
From the Reporter:
Phase 2 will include improvements to Advanced Stop Lines at six city centre locations and improvements at Haymarket Station, Lothian Road and South Charlotte Street.
Phase 3 will include the area where cyclists will cross from Princes Street to South St Andrew Street and Phase 4 will make changes to the road layout at the foot of Lothian Road. Public realm will also be reviewed in this area
Then later on in the Reporter:
Meanwhile, Phase 3, expected to be completed in autumn 2018, will include a short length of new segregated cycle lane on Princes Street.
These appear to be different "phases" to that published in the Spokes article. The Spokes article seems more optimistic than what we actually appear to be getting.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Posted 7 years ago #
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When doing the Dalry Road to West Maitland Street turn; I signal right until I get to the tracks. Then I put both hands on my handlebars and go as straight across the tracks as I can. Then I find out where I am, and what has happened behind me in the meantime. I'm sure I confuse people by signalling right and then going "left". I hope there will at least be some signs at the Dalry Road exit. It might make drivers think if nothing else.
I'm sure some drivers don't actually consider that cyclists might have good reason for doing what we do. This is one of the things that anti-cyclists rants do. Drivers then assume we're all incompetent road users.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@fimm, that's exactly what happened to me yesterday turning right at the bottom of Lothian Road. I was in the right-hand lane but I kept to the left in it to give myself a bit more radius to turn once I'd have crossed the tracks at a decent angle. Bad enough that the car in the left-hand line just ploughed ahead with the right turn, drastically shrinking my room but the car behind me hastily squeezed into the space I had left to my right. Between the two of them they'd boxed me into a rubbish angle crossing the tracks. It's just unsafe and inconsiderate driving and I'm not sure a sign will help such people.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@piosad and @fimm - that sounds horrid. I'm too feared to even try those junctions just in case that happened to me. I wouldn't cope well.
As well as Haymarket Station and Haymarket Yards (both of which I loathe, but need to negotiate) I also have to make the right turn into Torphichen Street from West Maitland Street. There are no road marking here at all asking motorists to give cyclists space.
In order to cross tram tracks at close to 90 degrees (which makes me feel safer) I cycle forward some way forward after the traffic lights before turning at 90 degrees. This gives one or two MGIF vehicles behind the opportunity to overtake and drive into the space I wish to turn into which I find very scary.
So some clear markings here suggesting "giving of space" to turning cyclists would be welcome, but I don't see this junction on the list for Phase 1.
I see the Council press statement says there will be improvements to Advanced Stop Zones. Whilst this is good, I welcome ideas on how on earth I am meant to actually reach these if I'm not already at front of the queue. Traffic is so tightly packed on many streets it is impossible to filter to the ASZ between rows of cars.
Will the enhancement of ASZ also provide cyclists with "corridor" through queuing traffic to reach these new super duper ASZ.
And finally.... given that ASZ are often full of cars who drive into them at will (rather than those that miss getting through the previous lights who have a right to be there) will there be enhanced education and policing re other vehicles making use of ASZ as their "quick get away zones"?
Without this then the purpose of ASZ fails.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Perhaps the British Army should coat its tanks with this special paint - given its ability to protect cyclists from 44 tonnes of hurtling HGV.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I'm worried about the ASZ stuff. Unless it's an early-green for bikes then it won't change anything and will just encourage inappropriate filtering from the inexperienced.
Doesn't matter how rigidly cyclists follow the council advice. They are still at the mercy of drivers.
Posted 7 years ago # -
McInnes:
"We're emphasising that this is about all road users looking out for each other to keep themselves and each other safe."
Then we're screwed. The council's plan for safe cycling is that everyone will magically change their ingrained behaviour because the council hopes they will.
"Drivers need to make sure they give cyclists plenty of time and extra space to get into the position they need to be in to cross the tram tracks safely"
But they don't. Anyone who rides a bike in Edinburgh knows drivers don't do this.
So, given you "need" this to happen for your plans to work, it must be obvious to anyone who can think straight that your plans aren't going to work.
Safety is a result of infrastructure/legislation/policing/convictions.
The council hasn't addressed these things.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Yes, the first 2 are a bit of window dressing (albeit the changed emphasis of the signage is welcome), but phases 3 and 4 look significant, and should make big improvements to these awful junctions.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Posted 7 years ago #
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Stripes indicating crossing angles are.. well
The behaviour they promote is turning right from the left hand lane, across straight ahead traffic
I don’t know if that’s a very good idea, but the current situation isn’t very good either, and it *is* how you work around the not very goodness
Posted 7 years ago # -
I wonder where in the Highway Code it covers stopping in the left lane to turn right, for both the turner and those behind. Possibly next to ‘hgvs do strange things like that’
Posted 7 years ago # -
Signs
https://twitter.com/edinreporter/status/913649314005700609
Hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
(A) "Give cyclists space"?
How does that change behaviour? Either drivers already think they give cyclists space, or they're punishment passers who will ignore this.
It means nothing.
(B) If they'd put "1.5m" above the arrows, it would have meaning. First, because it tells drivers what "space" is.
Second, because it makes it sound like 1.5m is the law. Which means there's a chance of getting a ticket if you don't give that much space.
Complete waste of council money. Open goal missed.
(Added bit: the council doesn't put up signs telling drivers to drive at a safe speed - and then expect drivers to figure out what that means. Instead, they have signs stating the speed limit.
But, when it comes to cyclist safety, they ask drivers to guess what's a safe distance.
Why do they believe drivers can be trusted to figure out one of these, but not the other?)
Posted 7 years ago # -
The mistake here is a classic. The signs are predicated on the proposition that the people from whom we are at danger care about, look for, see, read and act on signs. They don't.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I think the council should invest in a series of signs. They should be placed above the desk of every senior transport official and councillors, wording something like:
"Would I let an eight year old use this facility? No - then start again"
Posted 7 years ago # -
"Would I let an eight year old use this facility? No - then start again"
Or, better,
"Would I let MY eight year old use this facility? No - then start again"
Life looks differently when it's your own blood on the line.
Posted 7 years ago # -
“blood on the line”
Unfortunate phrase
And
Sadly
Wholly appropriate.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Can the council not do what they like where they like by invoking the same tram legislation they have been trying to use to screw up Picardy Place? It's all tram related work after all.
At least the width sign is illustrated with a car giving space. The car following the cyclist appears to be doing so at about 1 bikes length which is definitely not giving space (I think I read 2.5 car lengths somewhere).
Posted 7 years ago #
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