CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Edinburgh Tram Extension to Newhaven

(319 posts)

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  1. Klaxon
    Member

    There's several extra signal junctions but these I'm sure can be quoted as an add-on to any existing bid quite straightforwardly (none look complex).

    The only major tram change I saw is the relocation of the emergency crossover from the Foot of the Walk to Arthur Street. This is just different, not more.

    The jankiest bit of new design I can see is the crossover from the bi-directional to unidirectional lane. It's baaaad and there isn't a better way via the gyratory lanes.

    They really need to work a gap into the signal phasing to let bikes cross straight over, even if it means an extra red to briefly wait at the pedestrian crossing.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  2. Morningsider
    Member

    crowriver - all true, but surely it would have made sense to finalise the designs and then launch the tendering exercise. I'm concerned that changes to specifications at this point will see the Council faced with a guy with a stubby pencil behind his ear, sucking his teeth and saying "Segregated cycle lanes? Weeeell, it's doable, but its gonna cost ya!"

    I genuinely hope I'm wrong.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  3. crowriver
    Member

    @Morningsider, point taken, but does it really cost significantly extra to move the kerb a few metres into the carriageway and effectively widen the footway? I'm not convinced, not on a job of this size.

    I reckon the main "unknown unknown" is whatever utility works still remain to be completed on the likes of Constitution Street, etc.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  4. southsider
    Member

    CEC have now posted the revised plans - they are buried a few pages into the consultation.
    @wintermute's imgur post remains easier to access and has the old versions to compare.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  5. crowriver
    Member

    Interesting how the success of consultations is now measured:

    ---

    The first phase of the consultation generated the following engagement and interest:

    Public information events: 4 (Leith Theatre, McDonald Road Library, Leith Community Education Centre and Ocean Terminal)
    Business information forums: 4
    Total event attendance: 1500+
    Consultation Hub responses: 1,466
    Individual pieces of post-it feedback on plans: 600+
    Total social media reach: 211,660
    Total social media impressions/views: 3,523,831
    Leaflets distributed: 2,000
    Website page views: 34,689

    ---

    It's the attention economy...

    Posted 5 years ago #

  6. crowriver
    Member

    I have responded to the second consultation in a generally positive and constructive manner.
    Easy enough to complete.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  7. jonty
    Member

    Presumably the engagement statistics are to rebuff any suggestion that the plans were not adequately consulted on later on.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  8. jonty
    Member

    Does anyone know what the minimum Leith Walk pavement width will be north of Crown Street? Looks minimal.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  9. ejstubbs
    Member

    Do you mean by the bus stops? Viewing the pdf at 100% and applying a mk1 ruler, it looks like about 2.5m. Sharing the space with a bus shelter reduces it somewhat, of course. The footway itself actually looks narrower on the south side of Great Junction Street and Duke Street, on the drawing anyway.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  10. jonty
    Member

    I'm referring to the bit closest to the shops, rather than the bus stop 'island'. Presumably the bus shelter would be in the 'island' bit would it not? So hopefully the main pavement would be totally unobstructed.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  11. chrispaton
    Member

    I'm interested in people's thoughts about the 4 bus stop bypasses in the bottom section, especially those near the Foot of the Walk.

    It will certainly depend on the exact widths, but I worry that they will be effective for no-one -- with busy bus stops resulting in pedestrians all over the cycleway, and pedestrians, understandably, aggravated by cyclists trying to get through. And even confident cyclists won't want to use the carriageway here as it's one lane with tram tracks in it (unlike the section above Pilrig Street where there are two lanes like Princes Street).

    I wonder whether if, for these ones where the bus stop is recessed in a layby, it's better to have a short section of on carriageway cycle lane outside the bus stop layby. This eliminates all the pedestrian conflict and results in a straight line for cyclists. I definitely recognise that this means cyclists would have to overtake stopped buses, though the bus drivers are generally very well behaved, so I think this is probably ok.

    Definitely conflicted over what the right answer is. What do others think?

    Cheers,
    Chris

    Posted 5 years ago #

  12. Klaxon
    Member

    Big no from me to cycle lanes on the outside of bus stops

    That’s how north Leith Walk works just now and it’s really bad. Constant bunny hopping of cycle and bus due to similar effective overall speed but higher top speed of bus. Constant criss crossing of paths.

    Watering down as you suggest would repeatedly dump cyclists ‘in traffic’ exactly where they are most vulnerable. This why bus stop bypasses are so important.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  13. i
    Member

    I've made a comparison of the proposal earlier this year and the latest proposals.

    Comparison

    Earlier this year I didn't get the section at the Foot of Leith Walk, but the earlier proposal down there was so bad anyway.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  14. i
    Member

    @ejstubbs Its 1.5m wide pavement near crown st according to my measurement.

    I question the necessity of the bus stop layby. One of the features of of a tram is that it can share road space when needed. If there's too much bus traffic at Foot of Leith Walk, then route the 7 and 14 bus service via Pilrig St and send some other routes via Easter Rd. The tram would also obsolete much bus traffic. And a bus/tram gate will reduce through traffic. Then there is room for roomy bus stop islands, bike paths and pavements.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  15. Frenchy
    Member

    That gif is very useful, ta.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  16. neddie
    Member

    better to have a short section of on carriageway cycle lane outside the bus stop layby

    Er, no.

    Any on-carriageway section will immediately eliminate children and those less-confident from the route. Weakest link in the chain and all that.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  17. i
    Member

    Here's the newest proposal in a bit more detail from Picardy Place to Foot of Leith Walk.

    Direct link

    Posted 5 years ago #

  18. i
    Member

    I thought about how would you solve the problem of crossing over at Elm Row if you're heading north east. Bi-directional path can continue on Elm Row itself. Then there are two opportunities to make good solutions to crossing the road by bike.

    Static Image

    Comparison to latest proposals

    Posted 5 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    That was the original proposal, to continue bi-directional. Feedback from consultation must have changed the design: it looks they've actually closed the end of Montgomery Street completely, rather than just banning right turn? Also they have widened footway massively at top of Elm Row, which I like.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  20. Klaxon
    Member

    Big fan of that Elm Row redesign

    "cars allowed, cycles prioritised"

    Much more pedestrian room too

    Posted 5 years ago #

  21. i
    Member

    @crowriver For completeness sake here's the April 2018 proposals compared to my tweaks.

    Direct link.

    I wonder how the tweaks would fit into that feedback.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  22. chrispaton
    Member

    Thanks for the feedback -- I'm definitely interested in the views of the wider community.

    I confess that today I prefer the lower (northern) part of Leith Walk with the advisory lanes to the segregated bit between McDonald Road and Pilrig Street. That lower part is a perfect stretch of wide, straight, cycle lane without interruption (though I welcome the Transport Bill banning double parking). The segregated lane constantly deviates in and out around bins, bus stops, and side roads, and has conflict with pedestrians.

    Don't get me wrong -- I get that the preferred outcome depends on the user, and I also wouldn't want a younger child on the carriageway at any point either. But I question whether we should be designing for a young child given that most of them are carried by bike seat, cargo bike, or tagalong; very few end-to-end journeys are possible only by completely segregated or quiet cycle routes, even factoring in network development over the next 10 years. I therefore suggest that we should design for adults and older children (e.g. 8+), and I believe that they could indeed navigate a short on-carriageway section around a bus stop, as they might do on other roads. This seems much preferable for a cyclist with even a little confidence and provides a direct route with no pedestrian conflict.

    Have I convinced anyone, or are folk still unconvinced? :-)

    Posted 5 years ago #

  23. Frenchy
    Member

    Pretty unconvinced here as well.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  24. Klaxon
    Member

    This seems much preferable for a cyclist with even a little confidence

    This basically the vehicular cycling philosophy which has and continues to shape UK cycling non-facilities into expensive, useless paint

    Posted 5 years ago #

  25. ejstubbs
    Member

    @chrispaton: I think a problem with that is that, once the trams tracks are in place, the "short on-carriageway section around a bus stop" would involve crossing on to the tram track - most likely at a dangerous angle. Even with mitigations such as compressible or deflectable inserts the rails would be a slip hazard in anything other than dry conditions (and this is, after all, Scotland).

    Although not ideal, I think that on balance I would prefer to take my chances cycling with care on a good surface in the vicinity of pedestrians/bus passengers, versus mixing it with trams on a less than ideal surface. Either option is quite likely to involve having to give way.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  26. i
    Member

    @chrispaton You make a good point that even the perfect street in isolation is not a very good network.

    I would argue that Leith Walk is a very important backbone in the future network. There is also the fact that lots of residential streets join directly onto Leith Walk; already on its own the cycle paths will prove useful to local people who want to use this street.

    The Dutch average cycle journey length is actually quite short, about 2km, see the second bar chart in this blog.

    I took the Innertube Map and added Leith Walk in dark blue (tramline in black). I reckon doesn't take much rat-run elimination and extra links to join the existing off-road network to Leith Walk. I'd also argue that Leith Walk is closer to being a missing link than an isolated network.
    Direct Image Link

    If you make the cycle paths child friendly, you make it usable for elderly and disabled people and usable for everyone in between. I want to aim for mass cycling for everyone because that's where the whole society can reap the rewards of cycling.

    You also might find this blog interesting, a dutch pedestrian perspective, for most people cycling, I'd say its closer to walking than to driving (in terms of speed and kinetic energy) and the streets should reflect that.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  27. Frenchy
    Member

    Consultation on revised plans ends Sunday.

    For my own benefit, I (crudely) stitched together the plans. This can be downloaded here. It's a 22MB file, though.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  28. McD
    Member

    Meeting set up re a Leith Cycling Network/alternatives for Constitution Street to Newhaven - 11th December - will report back on behalf of Spokes.

    "All

    In conjunction with Sustrans and Aecom we will be carrying out a feasibility exercise focussed on the provision of a cycleway from the Foot of Leith Walk to Ocean Terminal.

    This meeting invitation is to discuss and agree with key stakeholders the main objectives for the project.

    Kind regards
    Michael

    Turner & Townsend Limited "

    ADMIN EDIT

    Names and emails removed

    Posted 5 years ago #

  29. CycleAlex
    Member

    Preferred route is via Henderson Street for the Foot of the Walk - Ocean Terminal active travel project. Great Junction Street and New Kirkgate discounted.

    Found buried in some Community Council minutes.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  30. Rob
    Member

    Sounds like a typical "put them out of the way" response. How do you get from the Foot of the Walk to Henderson Street without using the busiest part of Great Junction Street?

    Posted 4 years ago #

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