Morningsider:
There’s no guessing
The plans out for consultation say ‘for tender’
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Edinburgh Tram Extension to Newhaven
(319 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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Maybe because they already had these plans and could discuss them at an earlier stage before they resourced up and produced plans that they were becoming more wedded to (optimist).
Posted 6 years ago # -
“I just do not get why they are consulting on a single detailed solution but saying everything but the route is still up for debate. Why not present various different options?”
Exactly.
The whole thing is completely disingenuous.
It would be in their interest to show options in a few areas if only to indicate they were thinking about them.
Even Roseburn had more than one option!
“For better cycling facilities, lots of people will need to try to influence councillors, community councils etc. as part of responding to consultation”
Why, Why, Why???
It shouldn’t be up to ‘US’ to lobby for CEC to implement its own policies. Enough campaigning went into getting some of them approved.
CEC got a LOT of help by #ActiveTravel supporters actively backing the whole 20MPH process.
I’m not expecting a simple binary ‘thanks for help with that (and Roseburn etc.), it’s made it easier to get better outcomes down Leith Walk’.
NO.
It’s worse than that. CEC has released plans that undo a lot of things that already took a lot of campaigning and sitting around tables with officials.
THIS IS POLITICAL.
Spokes, Sustrans, Living Streets, PoP, Cockburn etc. Need to agree on basic ‘minimum principles’ - segregated cycleways and plenty of pedestrian crossings and demand a meeting with CEC Leader and Transport Convenor and Transport Minister and refuse to take no for the answer.
Posted 6 years ago # -
“Tendering begins in less than a month, with the contract to be let later this year. I imagine these companies will want a very good idea what they are tendering for. Any guess as to what designs they might be basing their bids on?”
Indeed.
Given the shambles of TramPart1 you can be VERY sure that ALL parties will want VERY tight legal contracts.
This whole thing is a sham.
Time for crowdfunding for legal action to stop this until it’s done properly.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Photo by McD
Posted 6 years ago # -
With regard to the statement above about the poles being open to consideration: there was a categoric statement at the Spokes meeting that the use of poles would and could not be deviated from as they were already in stock from the previous phase.
It was also stated that any other method, eg suspended from buildings would require legal processes that would take far too long.
These meetings would seem to be fairly pointless if they are just going to say what they think people want to hear regardless of previous statements.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@McD: "Maybe because they already had these plans and could discuss them at an earlier stage before they resourced up and produced plans that they were becoming more wedded to (optimist)."
That seems suspiciously like how Picardy Place was handled. "We've got these plans, lets get all the contracts sorted, then 'consult' but that will at most result in some minor tinkering with no cost implications or major revisions to the original concepts".
Sound familiar?
Posted 6 years ago # -
"This whole thing is a sham."
Exactly.
Or, in Cllr Macinnes' coinage, a "sop" (see Picardy Place).
Officials are just ticking boxes off their schedule plan.
TROs? Check.
Drawings? Check.
Tender process? Check.
"Consultation"? Check.
No or very tiny minor changes? Check.
Tender approved? Check.
Council decision? Check.
Construction started... etc. repeat until 2022.Posted 6 years ago # -
After the fourth station there should be a branch line which says We all go back to the drawing board.?
Posted 6 years ago # -
The main problem with the poles is that they ‘need’ the central reservation which takes away space that could be used at the side for segregated cyclelanes.
But I don’t understand why it means no crossings - there are plenty on Princes Street.
Posted 6 years ago # -
edinbvrgh .. so much to answer for
Posted 6 years ago # -
Oh and good luck bringing any serious challenge to these plans. Even if you object on valid grounds, it's at the Council's discretion whether to hold a public "hearing" into the objections. Basically the powers from the act of parliament for the trams mean they can pretty much do as they like.
That's why they could push through the Picardy Place gyratory. And that's why, if they want to push through the Leith Walk trambles, they can.
So yes, it's political. Basic politics, i.e. the exercise of power. The Council has the power to do this (until 2021 anyway) and the public can do very little to stop them.
Posted 6 years ago # -
“Even if you object on valid grounds, it's at the Council's discretion whether to hold a public "hearing" into the objections. Basically the powers from the act of parliament for the trams mean they can pretty much do as they like.”
Yes, but I don’t think anyone really wants any sort of hearing.
In an ideal world CEC will just agree to sensible stuff.
Yeah right.
Not sure I think Spokes is looking at this the right way -
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By responding to the consultation you help those Councillors who are pushing for proper conditions for cycling & walking
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https://mobile.twitter.com/spokeslothian/status/976904166412050433
Sunny optimism, pragmatism or ?
Posted 6 years ago # -
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I asked Rob Leech today about timescales for adding active travel if agreed priority and wouldn't it be better if they started now, but apparently there is plenty time!
Now what I did I do with that Dictaphone?“
Posted 6 years ago # -
chdot - I like McD's photo:
"Winter 2018: Final decision on whether to proceed...Spring 2019: Construction starts"
Could be a bit of a nail biter that meeting in winter 2018 - will they, won't they - if only we knew what they were thinking.
Posted 6 years ago # -
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Andy and Graeme are right. There's a line between consulting the public and asking the public to be the consultants. Andy should be billing his time to the tram project!
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https://mobile.twitter.com/reggietricker/status/976913907163041792
Posted 6 years ago # -
@ Morningsider
It’s fine, CEC knows what it’s doing.
Posted 6 years ago # -
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Yes there is lots of time actually as the procurement process timescale runs until nov 2018. The notice for tram construction is not even on Public Contracts Scotland yet, meaning that final contract and build specs ain't decided on yet. ITT won't be issued for a good while yet.
“
https://mobile.twitter.com/macsomairle/status/976918470309896193
Posted 6 years ago # -
Five years to get plans to this stage, but five months (?) is enough time to fix them.
Right.
Posted 6 years ago # -
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The whole point of the Transport Forum was to run things like this past them so schemes were better formed and sense checked before they got out into the full public eye. In response to previous tram 'debacle'. You can see results of that not happening. edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/1…
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https://mobile.twitter.com/reggietricker/status/976919367651942401
Posted 6 years ago # -
“
THE tram project was destined for trouble right from the start, the final witness has told Lord Hardie’s inquiry into the fiasco.
Consultant Stuart Fair said the contract was signed too soon, risks were not properly costed and the council had problems communicating with its tram firm TIE.
“
Obviously CEC has learned from all the mistakes it made last time and will learn nothing when the inquiry’s report is finally published.
Posted 6 years ago # -
chdot - not sure who @macSomairle is - but the procurement process is well under way. Four bidders have pre-qualified and will be invited to tender by mid-April (i.e. in a few weeks).
These four bidders then have three or four months to work up detailed bids - as the Council will need time to assess them prior to the November decision to proceed. Once these bids are worked up, there is limited scope for design change - unless we want a repeat of the last fiasco. Obviously, bidders are going to base their design on the tender specification drawn up by the Council - which will be issued in the middle of April. There simply isn't time to analyse the results of the consultation and then update the tender documents in the time available.
I'm not sure what the purpose of the two consultations is - perhaps we get to pick the colour of the pedestrian deterrent paving.
Posted 6 years ago # -
So CEC does listen.
Maybe irate parents are more scary than THE Cycle Lobby(?)
Posted 6 years ago # -
Well, all affected parents were notified by letter for a start - that helps.
Have Leith Walk residents been physically notified by CEC? Was there mention that the pre-tender has already started (allegedly)? Did it mention that once part of a tender, the current proposals are unlikely to change, or even be able to be changed (given past experience)? I suspect I know the answer to these and many more questions which occur to me... This is a fake consultation.
Posted 6 years ago # -
“This is a fake consultation.“
That conclusion would appear to be consistent with the evidences.
So why are so many people confident ‘it’s all negotiable apart from the route’?
Genuinely baffled.
AND I DONT WANT TO BE RIGHT WHEN I SAY “looks like it will turn out like #PicardyPlace.”
Posted 6 years ago # -
“Have Leith Walk residents been physically notified by CEC?”
Leaflets (well, one-sided sheet of A4) are currently being delivered to the whole area with details of “first round of consultation”.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I can take a photo of mine when I get home, but like you say, a side of A4 with a list of the consultation dates/venues that you see on the website. I don't think I would know what it meant if I hadn't been primed by all the conversation online.
Posted 6 years ago # -
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Groups across all workshops noted that they sometimes felt unsafe when cycling around the Leith area. It was a common suggestion on the Place Standard exercises that the areas network of cycling lanes should be expanded – especially along major roads. A perceived lack of safety in general was also a common theme, with suggested solutions including providing better lighting along streets and pathways at night, and increasing the coverage of CCTV cameras.
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