CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Edinburgh Tram Extension to Newhaven

(319 posts)

  1. wingpig
    Member

    Their interactive atlas would be a far better method of exhibiting plans, rather than fifty or more PDFs.

    Done, anyway. Tried to draw their attention to current real things they can look at to flesh out my arguments, such as the presence of school crossing guards indicating the presence of schools to which pupils need to walk, existing red paint strips on the roads in the town centre which cyclists don't use as they make taxis up your mudguards even more dangerous, large numbers of pedestrians at particular street corners and not on others (implying that proposed tram stops might be in the wrong place) etc. Gave up trying to not be too excoriating after the first page.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    Finally done.

    Definitely got consultation fatigue now (and a sore back, possibly unrelated).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. McD
    Member

    Spokes Response
    Apologies, I had hoped to have a meeting with Forum members/local cyclists to share thoughts before submitting this but timed out due to other pressures.
    Maybe meet a bit further down the line, once we have some idea of the way ahead.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    “once we have some idea of the way ahead“

    Yes, that will be an interesting stage in the ‘Edinburgh as a cycling city’ process...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @McD

    Full credit to you for making such a detailed critique of the plans. I was overcome by despair long before reaching Newhaven.

    Out of interest - why does Spokes support the tram project in principle when it has already made the West End a deathtrap and shows no sign of not doing the same to Leith Walk?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. NiallA
    Member

    I think the pdfs for Foot of the Walk/ Constitution Street have the tram stop on LW, rather than CS as per the drawings you were working from, Martin. I'd echo IWRATS comment regarding the detail - heroic! I have to confess that I started each of my responses in the online form "Please refer to Spokes' submission" before adding anything of my own...

    I agree with the "in principle" support - mass public transport with greater safety and less pollution seems a desirable addition to Edinburgh. The practical implementation is what we're fighting for (and @IWRATS of course I agree that that has been dreadful so far).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    “Full credit to you for making such a detailed critique of the plans. I was overcome by despair long before reaching Newhaven.”

    As I have said before, I have so little faith in any tram/CEC related BIG projects that I didn’t look at the plans in detail.

    I’m VERY glad others have.

    I also hope that all the reassurances from politicians that ‘nothing is fixed apart from the route’ turns out to be vaguely true.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    mass public transport with greater safety and less pollution seems a desirable addition to Edinburgh

    Absolutely. Electric trolley bus seems to do that without the rails and with much more flexibility?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. neddie
    Member

  10. Frenchy
    Member

    Electric trolley bus seems to do that without the rails and with much more flexibility?

    I presume the argument for trams over trolley buses is that trams have a higher carrying capacity?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Frenchy

    Probably a lower ride quality too, but my question of the trams has always been: what are they for?

    Manchester trams make total sense because they go much further and hop on and off existing light rail track (I believe, though don't want to tempt the Wrath of the Trainspotters).

    Geneva's electric buses seem to work fine there.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. cb
    Member

    And, for various stratas (stratum?) of society trolley buses are buses and therefore not an acceptable transport choice. But a tram is a tram and that's ok.

    This is a recognised thing, no?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    25 page submission from Spokes -

    https://t.co/ZWHxMNjNOK

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. Arellcat
    Moderator

    And, for various stratas (stratum?) of society

    One stratum, many strata. Directly from the Latin for sheet or blanket, and from which we also get stratus, 'spread out', hence the cloud type.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. LaidBack
    Member

    From Cockburn Society report:

    On the proposed design for the section between Picardy Place and Union Street results in an unrelieved linear movement corridor with a distance of 200 metres between pedestrian crossings – the length of 2 football pitches.

    Amazing that anyone would consider blockading any lived on street to such a degree. Have the designers actually been there? 'Pedestrian Deterent paving' also mentioned to make sure people move in directions desired by planners. This is so back to front we should be getting a refund.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. unhurt
    Member

    My email submission pointed out that things like pedestrian deterents have an disproportionate affect on disabled people, elderly people & women (more likely to have young children with them and/or other caring responsibilities). Actively angry that someone would redesign a streetscape this way!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. wingpig
    Member

    I told them about the George Street consultants getting lots of nice data on how pedestrians cross roads all over the place and that the street should be redesigned for them to do this safeky, rather than to prevent such movements. Atkins appear to have not visited the street to gather any data whatsoever.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. McD
    Member

    @NiallA See url=http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/tramstonewhaven/info/5/key_documents/5/key_documents/1]"Trams to Newhaven - Key Documents"[/url] TRO Sheets 8 and 9 clearly show the tram-stop on Constitution Street, plus there has been much discussion about this. Bottom of Leith Walk has a tram cross-over and an island in the middle - not a stop - but shows there is plenty space!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. McD
    Member

    @chdot "25 page submission from Spokes -" - that's what I linked to earlier - maybe it looked more like mine was a heading than a link?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    Ah yes, failed to notice properly.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    Cockburn not nearly as detailed as Spokes’.

    Worth reading though.

    In case you don’t here are the closing paras -

    24. The present exercise comes over as simply a “this is what we are doing” information assignment rather than as genuine public consultation, in which views received will be assessed, tested, and if worthwhile, incorporated into the final scheme. This mirrors the approach taken in the recent Picardy Place “consultation”. This is a pity, because the proposal has merit and, if done correctly and carrying public and business confidence and support with it, would be a considerable asset to the city.

    Policy Statement

    25. We Consider that the current proposals are neither consistent with the Council’s own sustainable transport policies nor with best sustainable travel policy and practice. Rather, they are an engineering-led solution driven by the requirements of the tram.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. McD
    Member

    @IWRATS Leslie Macinnes was passionate at Spokes meeting about this being a genuine consultation and despite the project directors seemingly entrenched views at the meeting, both he and the Senior Responsible Officer (CEC, to whom he is accountable) have since stated that only the route (the tram corridor in the Act of Parliament) is fixed.
    They are prepared to do whatever they are told to do - the question now is what the council are going to tell them, where the additional money will come from and whether it can be done within the tram timescales.
    One compromise might be that it's not all done, but that the tram project "future proofs" what it can't achieve (like the Leith Walk Programme was future proofed - oh dear!).
    We may also have some influence from Daisy Narayanan if the Central Edinburgh Transformation programme can sprinkle some fairy dust and make the traffic disappear.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    “They are prepared to do whatever they are told to do - the question now is what the council are going to tell them, where the additional money will come from and whether it can be done within the tram timescales.”

    OK.

    So they are already spinning the line that changes will be ‘more expensive’ (whose fault is that?)

    How about the money saved from not ripping up existing infrastructure and adding pedestrian deterrents??

    When does ‘more expensive’ become ‘too expensive’?

    Whose money is it anyway...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    “whether it can be done within the tram timescales”

    What timescales?

    The project isn’t approved yet.

    I’m sure, if it goes ahead, everyone will want it to be done as quickly as possible.

    BUT

    ‘You can have a bit of a mess after x months or something much better after x+y months’.

    Who gets to decide that?

    And we are not just talking about a bit of fancy paving and a few extra trees.

    This is about how people will get about (and cross roads) for YEARS to come.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    About previously -

    A little thread. For me in Edinburgh, there's one route that sums up why we're not a cycling city. Haymarket to the airport was an opportunity, when the tramline was built. Could have been 6.6 miles of great travel. 0.5 miles, from Balgreen west, shows what could have been 1/13

    https://mobile.twitter.com/urbancyclist/status/990922191737950209

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. NiallA
    Member

    @McD - aarrgghhh, sorry. I’ve clearly misread the plans (was rushing to complete some sort of submission before the deadline). The design makes lense ensue to me than I originally thought it did! Hopefully the comments I made on this section will still make sense to some degree.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I had a chat with a Councilor on the T&E committee at PoP, the content of which I am still mulling.

    I'd copied the whole committee in to my e-mail to Councilor Macinnes which I wrote because, as usual, the consultation was like trying to dance in a diving suit.

    I wanted the Chair of the committe to know that I was thoroughly annoyed with the whole back-to-front approach and wanted her to insist on a complete rethink based on the correct hierarchy of interests: residents, pedestrian travelers, cyclists etc etc.

    What the Councilor said was that although my e-mail expressed my irritation with great eloquence (I paraphrase) what was actually needed was a technical message setting out the ways in which the proposals deviate from published council policy and suggesting remedies. This on the grounds that Councilor Macinnes, although fully behind making Leith Walk livable and safe for cycling, is entirely in the clutches of her officers, who are chain-smoking Flying Squad officers from 1973. (Again I paraphrase, wildly.)

    I'm still aghast at this idea. I'm not a road, street, path or tramway designer. I pay council tax to employ people who are and elect councilors to provide them with strategic vision for the city. It's the vision which appears to be entirely lacking, or at least the courage to do more than talk about it.

    I am quite baffled as to how the council actually works now.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    “who are chain-smoking Flying Squad officers from 1973. (Again I paraphrase, wildly.)”

    “I am quite baffled as to how the council actually works now.”

    Those two sentences (artist license allowed for) are connected.

    WHY such people have existed in Edinburgh for the last 40 years and, more importantly, LM “is entirely in the clutches of her officers” bothers/mystifies me too.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    “what was actually needed was a technical message setting out the ways in which the proposals deviate from published council policy and suggesting remedies.”

    Well yes but.

    Spokes and others have done that.

    Did it over Picardy Place too.

    In Lothian Region days COUNCILLORS made sure that the top two Highways officials were eased into early retirement for continuing to design road schemes that they had been elected to stop.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. fimm
    Member

    McD your link was to a google document that I can't access from work. CHDot has linked to the actual response on the Spokes website which I can read.

    Posted 6 years ago #

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