CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Edinburgh Tram Extension to Newhaven

(319 posts)

  1. chdot
    Admin

    Vice-chair Harald Tobermann said: “A tram line is a fine thing if it is designed well and operated well, but it is a very intrusive thing to bring into the most densely-populated place in Scotland which has already suffered hardship from the previous project.

    “We wonder whether the council as an institution has learned enough. If this goes wrong, the people of Leith Walk will pay a very heavy price.”

    A shortlist of firms wanting to build the extension from York Place to Newhaven has already been drawn up, but the city council will not make the final decision on whether to go ahead until the autumn.

    The timetable shows services operating on the new length of track by 2022. Mr Tobermann said: “It sounds a long time when you say it won’t be up and running until 2022, but they want to go on site in May next year and they have sent the tender papers to the bidders before the consultation is even finished.

    “Having failed Leith Walk so spectacularly during the 2007-2010 effort to build a tram route and the subsequent painfully slow remediation efforts, we insist that any further attempt to insert major infrastructure into one of Edinburgh’s premier streets is focused on the highest possible quality of planning, execution and final outcome.”

    In a ten-page response to the consultation on the plans the community council criticised proposals for a central reservation with “pedestrian deterrent” paving down the middle of Leith Walk as “wholly unacceptable” and argued there were too few pedestrian crossings in the current proposals.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leithers-voice-their-concerns-over-tram-extension-1-4732773

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. wingpig
    Member

    "I pay council tax to employ people who are and elect councilors to provide them"

    As, presumably, do the majority of the 'public' presumably expected to respond to the Public Consultation (in any meaningful way, rather than just treating it as a one-way provision of information, trusting in the Wise Masters and Mistresses of Council to Know Best and selecting "strongly support").

    "a technical message setting out the ways in which the proposals deviate from published council policy and suggesting remedies"

    Fortunately, I did that, albeit by accident. Their design guidance has pedestrians at the top; trying to stop pedestrians from crossing roads and installing rumble strips so that they're more likely to fall into the path of a tram from the median strip does not technically count as prioritising. Maybe that's the intention, with the removal of so many crossings.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    Seems as good a thread as any for this -

    The mayor’s plan is ambitious and has faced backlash from automotive groups. She plans to double the number of bike paths in the city to reach 1,400 kilometres (870 miles) by 2020, ban all gas-powered cars by 2030, redesign major intersections to favor pedestrians, expand the city’s public transportation system — including a 200-kilometre (125-mile) expansion to Paris’ world-class metro system — and the closure of certain streets to vehicle traffic. It’s on that last point where the city recently experienced a setback.

    https://medium.com/@parismarx/the-war-against-cars-will-ultimately-be-won-and-thats-good-for-everyone-a57b2983c81d

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. Arellcat
    Moderator

    a central reservation with “pedestrian deterrent” paving down the middle of Leith Walk

    I assume pedestrian deterrent paving is that high-relief type, like you find near Fishwives' Causeway, rather than on-street (or off-street) platform edging.

    On a street like Leith Walk, and an otherwise blank canvas, it smacks of poor design and wasted space.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    Well worth reading Leith Central CC's response to the consultation. In full here:

    https://leithcentralcc.co.uk/2018/05/01/leith-central-community-council-response-to-tram-extension-consultation/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    Yes, good read.

    Short extract -

    For people who live and work here, Leith Walk is not a transport corridor, but an essential part of daily life. The present proposal – which fails to articulate its own explicit design philosophy – is in serious danger of undermining an ecosystem made up of a rich mix of communities, businesses, cultural spaces, cafes, pubs and restaurants together with plenty of spontaneous meeting spaces supporting a very densely packed population that is by any measure a highly successful and sustainable example of 21st century city living. We are particularly concerned about the following unresolved issues:

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. neddie
    Member

    Full Spokes response, together with 6 or so full responses from other organisations who feel similarly, albeit with a lot of differences of detail:

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/public-transport/tramline-extension-to-leith-newhaven/

    A tweet of Spokes' submission https://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/990926060333273088

    and one referencing all the above submissions https://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/991048323653099520

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. paulmilne
    Member

    After reading through the Spokes detailed response, if I were a conspiracy theorist I would believe that the council deals with a shortage of cycling infrastructure experts by purposefully putting out slapdash initial plans and then sitting back and letting advocacy groups do their detailed thinking for them.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. Frenchy
    Member

    That'd imply that they planned on implementing the advocacy groups' suggestions.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    The paraphrased impression given by the experts when they were at consultations was "we've really tried and we know it's nowhere near ideal but honestly this is the most we're going to get through".

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It would be nice if the council published its actual policies, procedures, roles and responsibilities. Not the 'for show' ones, but the grubby reality. It would save a lot of wasted effort.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    “Not the 'for show' ones”

    But those are the POLICIES.

    Some officials choose to ignore and therefore don’t ‘tell’ the various consultants drawing up all these useless plans.

    As I’ve said before, if current process/outcome is not remotely satisfactory will need some legal challenge - which won’t be cheap.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    "Some officials choose to ignore and therefore don’t ‘tell’ the various consultants drawing up all these useless plans."

    Indeed. According to the response to Leith Central CC's questions, the Council's own Active Travel team haven't even been consulted on the plans yet. Allegedly that will be happening after the public "consultation".

    It's all so arse over tit it does make you wonder if they're just having a laugh.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. neddie
    Member

    Spurtle praises Spokes’ Tram Response:

    http://www.broughtonspurtle.org.uk/news/spokes-trams-newhaven

    As with Leith Central Community Council’s response, which we reported yesterday, Spurtle is impressed by Spokes’s contribution.

    Spokes forensically addresses problems of detail and offers solutions in a way which conforms to a consistent logic.

    That logic arises from a clear and thought-through vision of place making, high-quality infrastructure, and a modal shift away from car use towards active travel.

    It does all this in a tone of voice which is not strident or aggressive, but calmly determined and collaborative.

    The Council and Edinburgh more generally are fortunate to have such an expert, engaged and well-intentioned resource at their disposal. They would do well to listen to it.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. dougal
    Member

    As the shadowy, undemocratic arm of the council, who are these officers? The council website goes to great length to ignore them and their contribution. Who is making the decisions that even the councillors are shocked by?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. neddie
    Member

    And the Council's take:

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2480/thousands_take_part_in_trams_to_newhaven_plans_consultation

    That word again, "balance"...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "Of course, no final decision on taking trams to Newhaven, or not, will be made until much later in the year, when we’ll consider a Final Business Case based on the tenders submitted and the outcome of the consultation. "

    SO

    “based on the tenders submitted and the outcome of the consultation. "

    IN THAT ORDER???????

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    “will be made until much later in the year”

    Aka in a few months for a project designed(?) to take a few years AND have consequences for MANY years.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. Morningsider
    Member

    "Balance"

    The thing is - both national and local street design policy is based on the idea of a user hierarchy. This is pretty much the opposite of balance. Policy actually favours particular users - placing their needs above others, in this order:

    Pedestrians
    Cyclists
    Public transport
    Service vehicles
    Private cars

    The Council's policy is to NOT balance the needs of users. How hard can that be to understand?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    “How hard can that be to understand?”

    Now there’s a question.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    "As the shadowy, undemocratic arm of the council, who are these officers? The council website goes to great length to ignore them and their contribution. Who is making the decisions that even the councillors are shocked by?"

    Well you just need to view the report to Council on the Outline Business Case, presented at the September 2017 meeting*. No names of officers attached!

    However, in the minutes of that meeting it clearly states: "Report by the Executive Director of Place". If memory serves, Paul Lawrence? The same officer who accompanied the former head of Edinburgh Trams (now heading the design team for TH Real Estate on Picardy Place/Leith Street mess) and fielded questions a meeting of New Town & Broughton CC last year on Picardy Place gyratory...

    I'm guessing that. ultimately, Mr Lawrence is making the decisions. He's also deftly outmanoeuvring elected representatives and democratic oversight, whether by city councillors or community councillors.

    Reminds me of the old adage: whichever party you vote for, the government always gets in.

    * - Link can be found at the Council's rather self-congratulatory web page summary of the consultation, linked to by neddie above.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    Living Streets Edinburgh: Commentary on ‘Taking Trams to Newhaven’ consultation

    http://www.livingstreetsedinburgh.org.uk/2018/04/27/commentary-on-taking-trams-to-newhaven-consultation/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    From link -

    The Council should use the tram works project and related road closures to review traffic management on Leith Walk, Albert Place and Croall Place to reduce overall traffic levels. If running lanes for general traffic could be reduced, this would benefit the tram, and create more space for walking and cycling. Apart from essential access, there are strong arguments for restricting general traffic on Leith Walk, either entirely or in one direction. Failure to consider these options limits the scope to re-purpose space in line with the Council’s policies to support walking and cycling.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    “I'm guessing that. ultimately, Mr Lawrence is making the decisions.”

    Maybe, maybe not.

    Which is part of the problem - no one seems to know.

    Either he is directing things and NOT doing the job he was employed for, or the pre-exiting staff he is ‘in charge of’ are just carrying on as before.

    Of course there may be other options, WHO KNOWS(?)

    HOWEVER, all of this should be directed/decided by POLITICIANS - just like Picardy Place...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. Klaxon
    Member

    I think it was you said from experience the council works best when the councillors (of any affiliation) are in charge. Can you remember any notable good and bad times of the past?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. HankChief
    Member

    You may be interested in taking a look at FOI request 18287 which shows the design brief given to the design consultants...

    But don't worry, their response was

    "
    Segregated raised cycle path has been provided where a minimum width of 2.0m can be maintained throughout. Locations where this width impacts the minimum footpath width, cyclist provision has been provided on the carriageway via 1.5m wide cycle lanes (Leith Walk - Pilrig Street to Foot of the Walk ) or shared running (Constitution St to Lindsay Road). "

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    “Can you remember any notable good and bad times of the past?”

    Mostly Lothian Region.

    A fairly strong group of councillors (Labour as it happens) with some sense of purpose - a new top tier council overseeing the whole of the Lothians in a strategic way.

    At one point Transport was run by DBegg (originator of Greenways/bus lanes).

    IN ADDITION Begg imported (somehow) a new Director from Napier (where he also worked) to run the Department.

    George Hazel was ‘famous’ for giving up his free CEC parking space in Market Street which he drove to from Colinton Road in his Range Rover.

    He sold that and used the bus.

    Bad time was when LRC changed political hands for 4 years and re-instated road plans and signed contracts just before the next election which the new administration cancelled (at great expense).

    Then Margaret Thatcher abolished the Regions in Scotland.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    "Then Margaret Thatcher abolished the Regions in Scotland."

    Yes, local councils suffered from several difficulties after this:

    - Having to reorganise structures, shed staff, move offices, change systems etc.
    - Central government funding cuts meant massive sell-offs of property and assets which continue to the present day.
    - Political makeup of many councils changed substantially (that of course was the idea, to gerrymander wealthier suburban and rural unitary authorities in the Tories' favour)/
    - A general turning inward to more localised concerns, with less regional or strategic thinking, especially in smaller councils e,g Midlothian, East Lothian, etc.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. neddie
    Member

    Meanwhile, in the land of milk, honey, automobiles and black gold, a tram is perfectly possible on a LW-sized street without parking...

    Houston by Ed, on Flickr

    Posted 6 years ago #

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