CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Macho biking

(46 posts)
  • Started 6 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from sallyhinch

  1. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I enjoyed this essay on masculinity.

    I've been pondering for a while on how cycling has been framed by some as a means of demonstrating resistance to self-inflicted pain and of 'conquering' piles of rock that couldn't care less about being conquered. Of going further and faster than some notional or real rival and of risking all for an armour-plated breakneck dash on camera.

    I think we should all resist this trend and use bicycles for egalitarian purposes, but at the same time I harbour my own fantasies of strength and competence.

    Riding a bicycle is quite a vulnerable position to be in. Isn't it?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    “Riding a bicycle is quite a vulnerable position to be in. Isn't it?“

    Compared with?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. stiltskin
    Member

    (Some) People like to push themselves, set challenges & do things that give them a sense of achievement. Some don’t. Some like to use bikes for this purpose. Some don’t. Different strokes...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. wingpig
    Member

    There's a big difference in the flavour of phrasing between "I am personally happy to have demonstrated to myself an improvement in my cardiovascular and/or muscular capacities, using gravity on an inclined plane" and "I AM ELECTRONIC HILL CAPTAIN OF THE 'COL DU PULSATING BULB' SEGMENT".

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. Morningsider
    Member

    Cycling is variously a sport, recreation and a form of transport. What people choose to do with their free time is up to them. However, cycling as a form of transport in Scotland does require some attributes that could be considered "macho" - a disregard for personal safety, physical strength, speed and a willingness to deal with the elements.

    Before people pile saying "I'm not fast or strong" - I would argue that the fact you comment here means that (to some extent and compared with the average Scot) you are.

    Unsurprisingly, the need for these macho attributes mean cycle commuters are more likely to be male (the 2011 census records 71.6% of Edinburgh cycle commuters as men). In countries with decent cycle infrastructure (which removes the need for these macho attributes) there is a roughly even split between men and women (plus more children and older people cycle).

    This being the UK, there is also a class divide - with professional classes more likely to cycle than other groups.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. gembo
    Member

    Electric bikes should help?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I AM ELECTRONIC HILL CAPTAIN OF THE 'COL DU PULSATING BULB'

    That's my next tattoo sorted then.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    People like to push themselves, set challenges & do things that give them a sense of achievement. Some don’t.

    Absolutely. I don't want to tell anyone what to do but I am interested in why people do the things they do. I was thinking of the way cycling and bicycles are sold rather than used. How the activity is framed and packaged.

    Morningsider notes the class and gender divide in transport cycling which I consider to be a public health scandal. If cycling requires you to be brave or strong that's very wrong, but what if cycling is just presented as an extreme activity unsuitable for the cautious, gentle or encumbered?

    What is the source of the gender divide? And just why are so many male cyclists so interested in speed, distance and pain?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. Lezzles
    Member

    As a female, if I overtake a male cyclist on my commute to work I mentally count to 10 in my head. Almost every time before I get to 10 a red faced, puffing like billyo male goes speeding past me. There's something about being overtaken by a woman that just does these guys heads in.

    Sometimes its a game for me....

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. gembo
    Member

    @lezzles, never let yourself be Pinked.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. stiltskin
    Member

    ... but that happens to men as well........ assuming they can catch me. Mwahahaha

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. unhurt
    Member

    Proper thoughts later but "I AM ELECTRONIC HILL CAPTAIN OF THE 'COL DU PULSATING BULB' SEGMENT" is the best thing I've read today.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    @stiltskin, it is easier to chase than to stay in the lead. But I would say men will always chase women if overtaken but not always chase other men

    Though in these gender fluid days this is very binary

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. steveo
    Member

    men will always chase women if overtaken

    I've never chased anyone while commuting, if an idividual is going faster than me more power to them. If they're going slower they're probably about to fall off there bike. If I'm out on a leisure sport not commute ride and I get passed I might try and keep with them just for the extra exercise but when I'm inevitably dropped it doesn't damage my pride.

    I struggle with the mentality of chasing down a woman anyone just because she's they're faster than you.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. steveo
    Member

    Having said that I get embarrassed if I run passed someone while doing intervals, nothing worse than powering past someone just as the rest interval starts and it looks like you’ve busted a gut just to get in front but are now coughing up a lung having done it. Doubly so if it’s a woman then you just look like one of those idiots. Maybe I need testosterone supplements.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. fimm
    Member

    IWRATS "And just why are so many more males cyclists than females so interested in speed, distance and pain?"

    I beg to differ. I think the above is a more accurate question. It isn't binary "men are like this, women are like that". Some women are very competitive, and willing to hurt themselves in training and racing. It just seems that men are more likely to be like this. Nature or nurture or a bit of both?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. Lezzles
    Member

    Its all anecdotal but I'm not sure I can remember a time when I've overtaken a woman and they've then come steaming back less than 10 seconds later. On my commute the women are also more likely to respond to my chirpy 'morning' than the men.

    There is a gender divide though when it comes to taking up cycling. Ihave many many female friends who happily cycle with their family on a weekend on cycle paths. Very very few of them also consider cycling to work/shops etc as a valid form of transport. They're all perfectly fit but are concerned about traffic and the danger it poses them.

    I'd say they also probably think I'm completely foolhardy for taking my toddler on my bike anywhere other than the offroad paths.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Interesting that people have interpreted this as a male/female thing.

    I was wondering if bicycling could shed light on the nature of masculinity. Perhaps it has?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. stiltskin
    Member

    "Interesting that people have interpreted this as a male/female thing."

    Well.... Your thread is entitled 'Macho biking'

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Riding a bicycle is quite a vulnerable position to be in. Isn't it?

    If by that you mean we leave ourselves open to criticism due to restrictive binary labelling then yes. Cyclists or drivers, pootlers or racers, competitive or non-competitive, lycra-wearing or "normal", sporty or non-sporty. Add toxic masculinity to the mix and you have as you say, an activity that for some is about nothing more than going further and faster than some notional or real rival. Why is it so hard to be allowed to be all these at some time? There's a film out just now called Mamil that looks at men and their views on cycling. I've not seen it but I think it tries to get past some of the obvious contradictions - like people with normal body shapes wearing lycra - to get to some deeper truths about being a man (especially in macho Australia, I think).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. paddyirish
    Member

    Interesting thread. I often find myself yo-yoing with other riders and think there isn't anything sinister involved, though whether my fellow cyclists believe that, I don't know.

    My cycling is very much one-paced - on a typical commute I seem to plod along at one speed on a good day and 1-2mph slower on a bad day. While a significant portion of commuters are just faster than I am, I notice that I am generally faster than some others on uphills and they come flying past me on downhill / flat sections. I'm also rubbish at accelerating, so someone will often set off faster than I am, but once I get up to speed I will end up moving faster than they do. Throw in a few junctions/lights and yo-yoing will happen a lot.

    If I am catching a rider in front, I do assess whether I could sustain a pace to get past them and stay past, or whether I am better dropping my speed by 1 mph and staying 5-10 bike lengths behind them. I don't always get it right.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. Morningsider
    Member

    IWRATS - what's the cause of the gender split? Ignoring our rubbish infrastructure for now - I do think there is something in how cycling is marketed in the UK. Bike shops (man, I hate those places) are effectively gang huts - outsiders are rebuffed, staff are overwhelmingly male, jargon abounds, bikes are marketed on obscure technical characteristics and under baffling categories (XC, gravel, adventure, hybrid). Let's face it - this is all aimed at (some) men. Efforts to cater to women often seem embarrassing or patronising (often both). I'm not saying some women don't like this stuff - but marketing bods certainly see it as a male thing.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. amir
    Member

    I think Sportives tend to have a higher proportion of females than Audaxes (no evidence for this- just anecdotal). Not sure why, perhaps just a momentum thing. And numbers vary quite a lot between audaxes - perhaps an advertising thing.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Bike shops (man, I hate those places) are effectively gang huts

    That is, grimly, so.

    what's the cause of the gender split?

    I'm sure there's a whole book to be written on that if it hasn't already been done. One might single out conventional masculinity prizing risk taking, physical strength and competition. And not prizing a perfectly groomed appearance. I've long thought that expectations of the appearance of women at work is a massive barrier to transport cycling.

    I have no experience of being female so I may not be well placed to comment.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. c30c60
    Member

    I don't believe the gender split is caused by silly bike staff or marketing. I know several women who might cycle to work, but they also have to get kids to school or nursery and run errands. Not everybody is happy to put a child on Edinburgh's roads. More generally, there are differences in how people perceive public space. Many women learn at an early age that it's better not to attract attention outdoors - claiming your space on the road can go against years of ingrained learning.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. LaidBack
    Member

    Basically 'real' bikes are 'never' advertised for ease of use or comfort.
    Branding is all about speed. Events must promise suffering of some sort. Cycling is seen by many to be an antidote to being safe / indoors / in a car and requires special clothes etc (true I suppose if you cycle more than a few miles as fast as you can go).
    It is not an integrated part of daily life for most. Running to work probably has a more even male/female mix as risk is perceived as less.
    In European cities fast riding is unusual. The flow is designed to be fast on a bike whereas here we have to compete for our road space with everything else. I think I seem to 'enjoy' this but that enjoyment is totally wrong if we are to increase bike usage.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Events must promise suffering of some sort.

    There are running events that now include electrified mud. I wish I was making that up but I'm not.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. unhurt
    Member

    @c30c60 Many women learn at an early age that it's better not to attract attention outdoors - claiming your space on the road can go against years of ingrained learning.

    Oh yes. Men Shouting Obscenities At You From Cars: not just a cyling experience.

    That article is better than I hoped it would be (I have been disappointed in the past...) [H]ow do you find your way in a world that cannot be mastered? How do you live a life in which all of us must eventually surrender and come to terms? is a pretty key question for everyone, once you realise that yes, you too are going to get old and sick one day (if you're lucky!)

    I've been pondering for a while on how cycling has been framed by some as a means of demonstrating resistance to self-inflicted pain and of 'conquering' piles of rock that couldn't care less about being conquered. Of going further and faster than some notional or real rival and of risking all for an armour-plated breakneck dash on camera.

    Higher, colder, faster, stronger? Not just/only cycling: the present fetish for Extreme Challenges (and every year a new one to beat or do backwards) seems to be a 21st century response to the lack of new places to act out the explorer/discoverer's triumph (or at least attempt). And while women do it too, the history of that concept is pretty inextricable from cultural ideas of conquering & masculinity, especially in western culture.

    And maybe CCE is ready for bell hooks after all?
    "The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem." The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love (2004)

    ...I'm now resisting the urge to follow this with a quote from Madonna's What It Feels Like For A Girl.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. unhurt
    Member

    electrified mud

    Have you been talking to my Spartan Racing acquaintances? Because the mud that shocks you seems to be the least of it...

    Weirdly my Iron Man completing tri- and du -athlon doiong friends is very UNmacho about it all. He is, however, a total stats nerd and loves to talk about the way his numbers change after epecially awful sounding training approaches. Also he's dead wee, so has had a lifetime of not fitting quite the "right" macho mould?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. sallyhinch
    Member

    Sustrans did a very good roundup of what causes the gender gap in cycling - covers pretty much all the bases https://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_content_type/exploring_gender_and_activetravel_paper_sustrans_2018.pdf

    Posted 6 years ago #

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