CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Today's Nick Cook frothing

(453 posts)

  1. neddie
    Member

    I think the Police have mostly been issuing warnings for 20mph infractions. I note the article does not state the number of warnings given, but I suspect it is large.

    Certainly Edinburgh Police have responded to Twitter (and other comms?) as to where to do the enforcement.

    They even came to my street at my request, although they came at the wrong hours, so never caught anybody.

    (Most of the speeding on my street happens between 8pm and 10pm, the police came at 9-30am and so there were only a few grannies, all complying with 20mph to get to the shops)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    Touching "concern" for the environment from Cllr Cook here. Simply surfing the disgruntlement of suburbanites irked at having to pay an extra £25 a year to remove their lawn clippings and hedge trimmings. Extra congestion indeed! Ignoring the benefit that those residents without gardens will no longer be subsidising those that do: effectively the garden-less have been paying a "garden tax" via CT bills for decades.

    ---

    Nick Cook, Conservative environment spokesman and councillor for Morningside, said: "Paltry sign up figures for the 'garden tax' only magnify concerns around increases in fly-tipping, garden bonfires and more waste going to landfill, harming our environment and costing taxpayers even more in the long term. With more people also likely to jump in their car and travel to the local recycling centre, the council must offer reassurances that they are ready to cope with increased demand and traffic on surrounding streets."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-44965910

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. gembo
    Member

    what are the sign up figures? We signed up (MRs Garto very keen for reasons that remain opaque)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. acsimpson
    Member

    They are in the article. 45% signed up against an expected 46%. However as 10% of those who signed up paid for 2 bins the total was more than expected.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. gembo
    Member

    Perhaps all the unneeded brown bins can be collected and stored in Nick's garage?/ Nick's mum's garage

    Work blocks EEN articles, so did not click, apologies, thos I see it is bbc, work does not block these.

    Picture is a green bin. haha

    I do not remember before brown bins came on the scene people flytipping garden waste? Sofas yes, fridges yes plenty of that out the A70 as I type.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. Stickman
    Member

    45% vs expected 46%? And this is a disaster how?

    Is Nick expecting all 60k who haven't signed up to drive to the dump at the same time?

    I'm sure there some joke to be made about stockpiling adequate bins for Brexit but it probably belongs on the other thread.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    “I do not remember before brown bins came on the scene people flytipping garden waste?”

    Really?

    Not even along the WoL corridor around Colinton??

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. steveo
    Member

    I've not signed up but for the size of my garden and the few times it needs cut a year I could just stick the garden waste in my Carradice and ride to the tip.

    Probably end up composting it, not sure what I'll do with the compost.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    “not sure what I'll do with the compost“

    Flytip it on your garden.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    "Probably end up composting it"

    Which is what most folk should be doing anyway, unless they have a lot of trees/bushes that need regular pruning, giving rise to much woody material which would otherwise need a bonfire to dispose of.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. steveo
    Member

    I might just use it to heat the shed...
    https://permaculturenews.org/2010/01/11/free-hot-water-from-compost-wheelie-bin/

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. gembo
    Member

    @chdot, fly tipping garden grass cuttings over their garden fence yes but rats love a compost heap.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. unhurt
    Member

    (MRs Garto very keen for reasons that remain opaque)

    Opaque? She's probably thinking about the fallen leaf menace you suffered last year.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. gembo
    Member

    Ah the leaves I had forgotten about those Mongol hordes coming sweeping across the Balerno steppes, swirling at the lights and smashing into my front yard.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. unhurt
    Member

    Memory suppressed due to trauma?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. gembo
    Member

    Yes classic sublimation to allow survival

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I have sublimated ferrocene for survival.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. Rosie
    Member

    I have signed up. I am quite amazed at how much does go in the brown bin from my tiny garden - of course if I pruned and chopped earlier instead of allowing supposed dwarf buddleias grow to 8 foot high and roses to produce shoots that aim for the roof I could manage with panniers to the tip.

    I can see the point that those with gardens should pay for the privilege.

    In my Green Dictator dreams, no-one is allowed to have more than 20% of their earth space paved - I am appalled how precious growing earth gets concreted for cars & patios. Bad for flooding, bad for wild life.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. Blueth
    Member

    We're verging in to dangerous territory in trying to subdivide what individuals get from the local tax system as against what they pay for (reference to subsidising those with gardens).

    I have a small garden (and remove a lot of the arisings myself) and no children but have paid for the education of the offspring of non-garden owners. Should I get a rebate?

    I'll guess that the fortnightly collection in the winter will be an easy shift for the guys.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    "I have a small garden (and remove a lot of the arisings myself) and no children but have paid for the education of the offspring of non-garden owners. Should I get a rebate?"

    Well it's a policy choice.

    My point was directed at Cllr Cook's whinge that the £25 fee was a "garden tax". Current policy in all councils is to subsidise the education of children. I can't see very many who disagree with this, even most of those who choose fee-paying schools agree that subsidy for state/council schools is A Good Thing.

    Private gardens, while they may or may not have environmental benefits for us all (depending on how they are managed, they may help feed pollinators, reduce CO2 emissions, and reduce flooding - or they may do none of those things), primarily benefit the owners of private gardens. Therefore a council garden waste removal services primarily benefits those with gardens (despite other environmental benefits such collection may bring too). If garden owners wish to use the service, a modest fee seems reasonable (£25 per annum hardly breaking the bank). Otherwise, all council tax payers are effectively subsidising garden owners primarily to the garden owners' benefit. Of course there's always the option not to use the service...

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. steveo
    Member

    Should I get a rebate?"

    Only if the tax from the generation of kids you're not paying to educate doesn't go to your pension pot or NHS costs as you age.

    Ultimately central (Holyrood directly, Westminster indirectly) government has restricted council tax rises below inflation for a decade now, I'd rather pay £25 (or not) than have community pools closed or one of the other borderline services the council provides canned.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  22. amir
    Member

    I did think that garden waste actually had some intrinsic value, but perhaps not enough or the councils aren't exploiting this sufficiently?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  23. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    In my Green Dictator dreams, no-one is allowed to have more than 20% of their earth space paved - I am appalled how precious growing earth gets concreted for cars & patios. Bad for flooding, bad for wild life.
    @Rosie: Yeah, it's depressing how many front gardens near me are completely paved so people can park 2 cars in the "drive" and one on the road outside. Better than 3 cars on the road, sure, but I doubt they really need 3 cars in the first place.

    So as not to go too far off topic - I signed up for it, since most of the year I make reasonable use of my brown bin, though I'm not exactly garden-proud. Personally, I think it's a good idea and see nothing wrong with a so-called "garden tax". I can't imagine there's many people who have a garden that produces enough waste to require a garden waste bin but who aren't willing to pay the equivalent £2 a month for it. Plus, year-round fortnightly collections are good - I often have 2-3 bin-loads of stuff in bags by the time the first collection of the year comes around.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  24. Ed1
    Member

    The council subsidies many things, through providing services for free or undercharging . Some goods may be regarded as public good so benefit more than just the private user many may just benefit the private user to balance what part of the subsidy for wider society and what to the individual may be different shades of grey.

    Although most people would argue that schools are a public good and should be subsidies there has been some shift away from free at point of use education by the two main Westminster parties. If collage is the new 6th forth which is chargeable etc etc 6th form or indeed collage never used to be chargable.

    Schools could have means tested extra charges and still provide the public good aspect but can’t see that being popular or current. There is many other subsidies that the council allocate that could be reduced for example the free tram for over 60s. Many could afford to pay getting off in west end some on 6 figures salaries. Should the typically poorer tax payer subsides them. Council houses are rented below the market rate, and are a subsidy many people living in councils house on a higher income that many of those not in council houses. Its private rented house that young and poor often end up in often ex councils houses rented at a higher rate.

    It’s not poor and ruff sleepers would effect, a ruff sleeper or a poorer person would find it harder to get a council house than many people. In Edinburgh if you own a house it’s how many years you owned your house that counts as time on the waiting list, if rent private the waiting time only starts when you fill the form. Councils houses a bit of a racket in Edinburgh poorest people less likely to qualify. So if someone lived in Edinburgh in private owned house for 30 years and never applied for council house the have 30 years waiting time instantly added if applied. If a homeless person applied its just from the date they fill the form a homeowner does not need to fill the form to be on list its from date bought property also considered on council waiting list. (They are classed as movers if an owner and have waiting time added, if rent private or homeless are classed as new an no waiting time added)

    Edinburgh leisure is another racket. It is often worse off people subsiding better off someone on a low income or unemployed could not afford to use Edinburgh leisure’s £ 50 a month gym membership but would use a non-subsidized cheaper private faculty such as Puregym for £ 17 a month.

    Permit parking is often another subsidy a space in George street may be worth what £6000 a year yet the council rent them below costs the residents of George street effectively pay a negative council tax if take in to account market pricing.

    The council like much of government also subsidies the staff with above market pension and conditions subsides there Edinburgh leisure membership. Part of council tax is the pleasure of paying for Edinburgh council workers leisure. The harder working lowest income in non-protected employment has to pay to effectively subsidies insurance of many public sector workers. (although council are not worse offenders in this area).

    There is many things that are not clearly a public benefit yet are subsidies it may have been a policy decision to subsidies garden waste (or not)like many of the others things subsides may not be clear if was or was not (just grandfathered in) and if changed.

    In a sense it possibly was implicitly policy after many years; but either way there is many things that would come under the same grey area as garden waste so why the distinction?.

    There may be some correlation between having access to a garden and income yet some high value flats in town don’t and some fairly humble houses on the edge of town have a garden. Although the public benefits of a garden may be small, more possibly public benefit than a lot of the councils other subsidies such as paying a judge to use the tram or paying for millionaire to park car in George street, or paying the chiefs of Edinburgh councils gym membership. If charges are to be introduced for things with low public good then would guess should be some things chargeable before garden waste if following some sort of system of evaluation and estimating the public good element of different spending.

    I would guess like most thing in politics someone just though a good idea wont lose too many votes without some deeper scientific evaluation of public benefits of spending.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  25. cb
    Member

    There must surely be some level of planned brown bin pooling to account for? I.e. two (or more) neighbours share the cost of one bin.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  26. LivM
    Member

    I always consider that council tax towards education is effectively paying back my own education (even though it was different local authority etc.). That way it doesn't matter if I have children or not, we were all (well nearly all) at school once!

    Posted 5 years ago #
  27. LivM
    Member

    @cb yes the FAQs say that one person must take ownership and take on responsibility for collecting money from the other person(s).

    Posted 5 years ago #
  28. acsimpson
    Member

    If google is right landfill tax is around £80 a tonne. Our landfill bin in rarely 1/3 full. If instead of paying for a garden bin I had decided to use the excess space in the landfill bin for 10kg of garden waste a week the council would be £65 a year worse off. I wonder how many of the 54% of households not paying for a bin will be doing this and how much the council will loose as a result.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    "I wonder how many of the 54% of households not paying for a bin will be doing this and how much the council will loose as a result."

    Well the problem for the householder there is they can be fined for abusing the system, can they not? Their wheelie bin can be inspected and traced back to them.

    A less easily traceable route is on-street communal bins in tenement areas. People with gardens habitually abuse communal on-street landfill bins, and have done for years, before the current introduction of brown bin charges. Local to me I witness folk from Abbeyhill colonies dumping tree prunings, bags of leaves, rocks and soil from their gardens in the communal bins. Likewise builders occasionally pull up in vans or (less commonly) flat bed trucks and fly-tip rubble, plasterboard, etc. in the communal bins. Then of course there are folk leaving furniture, mattresses, etc. directly on the street. Though any half decent item of furniture left out usually disappears quickly, in an informal re-use / recycling system which is quite effective.

    Without some 24/7/365 surveillance state abuses of waste collection will happen.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    I would be OK if I put my brown bin out and it was say half full if someone then put their clippings and cuttings in to fill it up.

    Only really when the tsunami of leaves I forgot about arrives in the autumn does the bin get full and when we tackle that feckin buddleia. I think tackling it this summer by digging it out. Chopping it back only encourages it.

    Posted 5 years ago #

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