CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"Road danger is biggest barrier to cycling, says research commissioned by DfT"
(22 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
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That article's headline is an example of precisely the problem. It should be 'Incorrectly perceived road danger...'
Posted 13 years ago # -
Rant incoming...
It isn't incorrectly percieved though is it? For example on my ride home on Friday I had more close passes than I could count, an HGV driver driving the cab past and then swerving the trailer towards me, forcing me to slam the brakes on to avoid being crushed aganist a hedgerow, another HGV driver who pulled out in front of me while I was going downhill, a car driver tailgating me and sounding the horn whilst going through the worlds shortest roadwork (I would have gone faster if the car in front hadn't been holding me up), a taxi driver driving round me and then stopping. Etc etc etc. This morning was just general aggression, tailgating and engine revving, mainly from drivers abusing the bus lane which was three quarters filled with slush. It is worse at the moment because of the road conditions but it only goes to show that our perception of most drivers being okay only lasts so long as we are not in their way. Actual good drivers are few and far between I'm afraid though I am very grateful for their existance (I have a thread on it but can't find it).
Now, just because none of these people succeeded in killing or injuring me, doesn't make what they were doing not dangerous. And just because I am not dead or paralysed yet doesn't make all the near misses and aggression not frightening. Telling potential new cyclists that statistically those drivers are highly likely to miss you, especially since most of the time you are able to take evasive action is not really going to get them on their bikes. Especially when we have a media intent on stirring up hatred for cyclists.
I only keep cycling because I love it and am not going to be bullied off the roads (that my taxes have paid for). It is not always easy to keep going though. I am not surprised that 2 out of 3 people who try cycling go back to the car really.
Posted 13 years ago # -
But.
Why then is walking 'perceived' as safe? Take a walk through town and you've got cars going past too quickly that may mount the pavement (indeed many peopole ARE killed by cars on the pavement every year); rushing to get through lights just as they turn green for you to walk across; not paying attention turning into a junction with people in the road. For some reason we don't see this as dangerous, and I'm not sure it's much different from being on the road.
I can count incidents like that every day as well, but for every one of those I can count 30, 40, 50 people passing safely and not worth any comment at all.
Not sure where I'm going with this, need to think about it some more, was thinking of 'perceived safe' and 'perceived danger' and 'actual danger' and 'actual safety' but it all sounds a bit 'known unknowns' in my head right now.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm with Min on this one. I think the numbers of people on pavements vs cars on pavement is slightly different to the number of bikes on the road vs cars on road.
I would agree that anyone who wants to sit a driving test should be forced to cycle for a week first... bus/truck drivers a monthPosted 13 years ago # -
Certainly my most enjoyable commute by bike was round the north side of Edinburgh on the disused rial line from Leith to Haymarket. I'm gearing up tp cycling in from Dalgety Bay to St Andrew Sq and looking to avoid as many busy roads as possible.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Why then is walking 'perceived' as safe?"
Now there's a question.
I often say that 'cycling is safer than walking' - based on the fact that bikes are more part of the traffic than pedestrians who are constantly having to give way at pavement/road junctions.
BUT I am well aware that I am 'experienced', willing to position myself 'defensively' in traffic (but knowing that sometimes it's not worth the hassle).
I'm more with Min's view of perception/reality.
"I am not surprised that 2 out of 3 people who try cycling go back to the car really."
I think there is a whole section of utility cyclists (sometimes categorised as students) who cycle largely for economic reasons and then buy a car as soon as they can afford it.
I wonder how many Oxbridge students who (in general) aren't allowed to own cars, keep cycling when they graduate.
Posted 13 years ago # -
The question of walking feeling safe is interesting since I often feel safer on my bike than walking, as chdot says you can position yourself in traffic and so on. Crossing the roads are the problem because most drivers do not indicate and for side streets with no traffic lights, there is no way to tell who might be about to drive their car at you while you are crossing. This is where I feel unsafe walking.
And of course, many car owners drive very short distances they could easily walk! Whether it is because they feel safer or not I don't know.
I don't feel worried about cars coming on to pavements because it hardly ever happens, (unless they want to park there). If I was frequently jumping out of the way of speeding motors trying to evade traffic jams then I would feel very unsafe indeed.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Pedestrians are generally protected by their general segregation, most usually in the form of a kerb. A driver has to perform a pavement-mounting illegality to get at pedestrians on the pavement, whereas a cyclist in the road is in the direct way of much potential harm. People can and do fall off pavements (or could conceivably have their head clonked by the wing mirror of a passing bus) but falling over on the pavement only normally puts the pedestrian at risk from other pedestrians, whereas falling over on a bicycle puts you potentially under a wheel.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I absolutely agree that, as a pedestrian, the cars seem segregated, whereas on a bike you are in amongst the traffic, but the simple fact of the matter is, every year, more pedestrians are killed on pavements than cyclists are killed on the road. Which gets us delving into 'perceptions' again.
Posted 13 years ago # -
...and, of course, into proportions...
Posted 13 years ago # -
Very true - just where does the line get drawn on how to assess 'risk'? Is it per mile travelled? Per hour travelled? Does the number, creating the proportion, have to have a weighting to take accoutn of certain factors?
Posted 13 years ago # -
I wonder how many Oxbridge students who (in general) aren't allowed to own cars, keep cycling when they graduate.
Cameron, Clegg and Boris.
At least Boris is interesting.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"there is no way to tell who might be about to drive their car at you while you are crossing. This is where I feel unsafe walking."
AND it's completely unreasonable to expect drivers to remember that when they are moving from main roads into side roads that pedestrians have right of way.
(When they do they are still more worried about the car behind them...)
Posted 13 years ago # -
"AND it's completely unreasonable to expect drivers to remember that when they are moving from main roads into side roads that pedestrians have right of way."
My understanding of this rule is that pedestrians only have right of way if they are already crossing. So if a driver is indicating (ha!) and a pedestrian sees this and crosses anyway then they are in the wrong. Although that doesn't mean drivers are allowed to run them down.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"My understanding of this rule is that pedestrians only have right of way if they are already crossing."
Quite likely - doesn't work though....
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm happy to stop the car on the main road and wave peds across the minor road before I turn into it.
I'm in the kind of car other motorist worry about.
Clegg warned not to cycle but Charlie boy and his missus were allowed to go by car.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Huh yes, driving the Prince of Wales and his wife through an enraged mob is perfectly safe.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@Min
But what did the mob see that enraged them??
Posted 13 years ago # -
she had her window open, global warming
Posted 13 years ago # -
This is why we need to make the roads safer by clamping down on the greatest source of harm, the drivers! One thing is being talked about is the 20 mph speed limit, but it has been watered down to avoid the police doing anything, which doesn't help.
Posted 13 years ago #
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