CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Why don't we care anymore?

(30 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from TwoWheels

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  1. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    So this morning I stuck with the bus + walk instead of heading in on the bike.

    Got in at about 9.20. Slip/slide all along the pavements, and had a private hire cab storm down a snowbound Stafford Street just as I was crossing. Just ridiculous. Saw more bikes than yesterday. Hard to explain why I feel the way I do, today is the first time I can remember actually feeling forced off the road. It feels like giving in. And I just can’t fathom the utter stupidity of people, and the lack of any sense of responsibility or compassion towards another human being. What is so important about getting to a destination, or the back of a queue, less than a minute more quickly?

    I was reading something today on a blog where a guy who has a 4x4 was crowing about being asked to help out at hospitals and things like that now, when Councils till now have tried to ‘victimise’ the drivers of these cars. A cycling minister (which seems a quaint throwback) was trying to set the record straight in the comments section, and the responses are all about ‘look at this weather, where’s your climate change?’ or basically just saying that a few dead people caused by cars was a price worth paying or one person asking him for statistics of how many drivers are killed trying to avoid weaving cyclists, as if the number would be astronomical (the minister had pointed out the numbers killed and injured by cars and bikes according to DfT stats – the demand for numbers of drivers killed by not trying to kill cyclists suggesting the writer thought the figures would match presumably!).

    Seriously, when did actually caring about what happens to other people become so unfashionable?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    "Seriously, when did actually caring about what happens to other people become so unfashionable?"

    Nah - it's just that the internet makes it easy for some people to say what they really think while imagining that they are anonymous...

    This can't be the only forum with nice/helpful people(?)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I was thinking more of the fact that those kind of feelings actually ARE manifested on the roads. This morning on Stafford Street why did the private hire driver feel the need to put the foot down when I was crossing some way ahead? What was he thinking at the time? In the conditions it's not inconceivable I could have slipped and fallen in front of him, and at the initial distance I could have been some old biddy even more likely to do so.

    Where has the switch gone in so many people that says 'That's a person up there, these conditions are dangerous, I'll ease off just in case'?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Arellcat
    Moderator

    It probably started in about 1982. That was when the 'young urban professional' epithet was invented, and somewhat typified the "me me me!" culture that we see in so many motorists even now. Of course, driver impatience isn't strictly class-related, but the rise of mass production, Eastern manufacture and lowering of prices of stuff probably also encouraged the notion that people had less a hard-won privilege of ownership of something, and more a right. With more people working fulltime nowadays, there is less time for everything else, and so time itself becomes a commodity to be held onto at all costs. And because humans are still social creatures with very distinct personal spaces, the perimeter of the hard-won motor vehicle becomes the human, and personal space is extended accordingly; how dare someone invade my space, on a contraption that seems to give them more time than me?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. Min
    Member

    "Nah - it's just that the internet makes it easy for some people to say what they really think while imagining that they are anonymous..."

    The Internet has brought out so many of such feelings that it 
    just becomes socially acceptable to act then out while behind 
    the wheel of a car, knowing that so many other people agree 
    with you.

    "This morning on Stafford Street why did the private hire driver feel the need to put the foot down when I was crossing some way ahead?"

    That is SO common. Whether on foot or on bike. Whatever people 
    think of speedbumps I love the ones out near us. When I see a 
    car coming some way away I know I can cross/ride across the road and they 
    can't accelerate at me.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "I was thinking more of the fact that those kind of feelings actually ARE manifested on the roads."

    Yeah OK

    Private hire drivers do seem to be a problem.

    No doubt due to increased difficulty of making a living and pedestrians 'in the way' (no excuse).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    My theory is that the false comfort provided by modern cars, with tempered glass windscreens, air bags, seatbelts, crumple zones, side protection impact systems, smooth and comfortable suspension, comfy seats, reliable and effective climate control, cruise control and high quality audio and entertainment systems - all available at the flick of a switch - divorces too many drivers from the reality that they're in control of a high powered, heavy weight weapon capable of cruising at 70+mph with their posterior just inches off the tarmac.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    how dare someone invade my space, on a contraption that seems to give them more time than me

    @Arrelcat - very well put. As I was trying to convey above, the 4 walls of the car seem so safe and comfortable, something that has taken a significant amount of money to purchase and something that for many people is a status symbol of their position in society, that it's something that needs to be defended to the death.

    The footprint of the car on the road, that 6' by 12' patch of tarmac, is instantly transformed into the driver's personal fiefdom ("I pay road tax") to be run how they see fit and how dare anyone challenge their God-(or other diety)-given rights in this domain

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. spitfire
    Member

    My theory is that society is dead. Things like the Big Lunch project and such are gimmicks, nobody seriously wants to know their neighbours any longer. Possibly due to the internet meaning people can be in touch with far flung friends instead but I think society died with Thatcher

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. holisticglint
    Member

    I've found the attitude of drivers in the snowy conditions very confusing.

    I have defiantly had a general experience of people giving me more time and space on the road than usual but on the way home last night I had 2 cases of drive by "get off the road" abuse which is the first time that has happened out of the blue (that is when I haven't initiated it by berating someone for nearly killing me) in ages.

    Maybe peoples patience is beginning to wear thin - especially with the nice "relaxing" holiday period upon us !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. Min
    Member

    "something that for many people is a status symbol of their position in society, that it's something that needs to be defended to the death."

    So long as it is someone elses.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Dave
    Member

    Hmm, I've been riding every day and have found everybody to be much more agreeable in the present conditions.

    Ironically, when driving back into town on Sunday (with the snow at its thickest), I felt it would be prudent to ease off the gas pedal, and had some twit right up my exhaust the whole way - he couldn't overtake because of the snow though!

    I think it goes to differentiate between "passive" failure and genuine malevolence. That is to say, when I hold a wide position in the road on the MTB normally, I would expect to have some aggro from time to time. The snow seems to make the majority reconsider (perhaps because it's a hazard to bikes that they can actively consider, unlike the theoretical hazard from car doors that doesn't enter their minds). Yet, even when conditions are so bad that arguably nobody should be on the road at all, a few seconds delay between red lights will still prompt the odd driver into paroxysms of rage - against anyone.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. cb
    Member

    On Sunday afternoon we were walking down the road outside the house when a private hire car came hammering along the road, throwing up a wall of slush over the pavement. We quickly moved right up against the wall, but still got splashed on our lower legs.

    I was furious, and longed once more for my much longed after Puncture-Car-Tyres-At-Will super power, which sadly I do not have.

    It feels to me that until recently (during the bad weather) drivers have often been quite careful and thoughtful, but now that is starting to slip.

    One thing I enjoy about driving is the ability to help out pedestrians and cylists by giving them lots of space and room, e.g. if someone is walking down the road due to the pavement being impassable then I'll slow down and move across to the other lane, rather than expect them to leap off the road.

    Pulling out of my driveway today I saw someone walking down the pavement so I reveresed back in to let them past. That often seems to surprise people who seem to think that they must wait for cars coming out of private driveways.
    I /hate/ it when people coming into their drives don't give way to you as you walk down the pavement.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. Morningsider
    Member

    Anth - sorry to hear about you being ran off the road. I don't think this is the collapse of society, some people are just idiots. Unfortunately, some of those idiots are also drivers. There are more cars on the road than ever - meaning more idiots are likely to drive than ever before. On top of this - driving seems to bring on particularly idiotic behavior in some people (agree with Arellcat on the reasons for this). The vast majority of drivers are good people who look out for cyclists - I imagine most people are like me and only really notice the bad ones. I am sure most cyclists know this, although I agree it doesn't always feel like this.

    I walked to and from work yesterday (1hr + each way and very boring). A jogger ran full pelt into me from behind in Bruntsfield - no apology or anything, he just ran on. Idiot. Why go out running during rush hour when you are likely to lose control of where you are going? Just gald he wasn't in a car.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The vast majority of drivers are good people who look out for cyclists

    Absolutely. You just rarely notice those ones! It's the bad ones you notice (or remember) and that bring you down (metaphorically and unfortunately - literally).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. spitfire
    Member

    @Morningsider - that's when you need pogu ice spikes on your feet, go down flailing and stick them into their achilles heel, calf muscle, anywhere soft and juicy, their fault they made you fall

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Agree about everything you said Morningsider. Again I'm wishing Citycycling was still online just now - I wrote an article early on called 'Are we at war?' and another about 99.9% of drivers being really really good - both coming to the conclusion that we only tend to think of the bad ones. The sad thing is I had about 3 or 4 of the REALLY bad ones last night, and in these conditions especially that really knocks you off your stride.

    As with a few others on here, until last night I'd found most drivers actually taking their time and only passing when safe (if at all, a lot seemed to realise it was pointless with lights etc. up ahead).

    Not so much the collapse of society, but I do think there is a general degredation (not just in driving terms) in people looking out for each other these days. There have always been rude idiots, there just seem to be a few more of them these days...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. Min
    Member

    I started a good driving thread here for instances of good driving but I really do not think that it is 99.9% or even a vast majority that are good. I wish it was though as then there would be no problem with cycling in this country or with persuading potential new cyclists to start and then stick with it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. Morningsider
    Member

    @Min - I appreciate that everyone has a different perception of driver behaviour and cycle safety. I say the "vast majority" of drivers are good based on my experience. During my daily commute I probably come in close proximity to say 100 vehicles. I might see examples of really poor driving or malice towards me as a cyclist at most once or twice a week (although I have had days like Anth where it seems to be every second car). That to me indicates that the vast majority are good drivers and/or look out for cyclists.

    Then again - I've been an urban cycle commuter for a good number of years and have probably built up some immunity to poor driving and skills to cope with it (do cyclists develop a sixth sense?). I agree that new or potential cyclists are likely to be far more wary of poor drivers and may not have the experience/brass neck to deal with it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "do cyclists develop a sixth sense?"

    YES!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. Min
    Member

    This is often my experience too but the recent poor conditions forcing cyclists further out into the road have confirmed my suspicion that the reason we do not have a problem with most drivers is because most of the time we are not in their way. When you ARE in their way it is a different story. If you are just riding along at the side of a wide road then there is no conflict and no problem. This is why there are so many problems at junctions or at places where the driver wishes to park a few meters in front of where you are riding.

    Edit-Meant to add. I also think that while walking, the number of drivers who accelerate at you while you are crossing the road is much greater than the number who wave you across.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Im always in their way. But i did stop after climbing the Pleasance to let the three very patient drivers behind me go onwards. Mind you this was Sunday night and even i was wheelspinning up the hill....

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. Min
    Member

    "But i did stop after climbing the Pleasance to let the three very patient drivers behind me go onwards"

    Was it three or just the first one? :-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. Smudge
    Member

    "do cyclists develop a sixth sense?"

    I would actually say no... however they do develop a great deal of skill in anticipating likely actions of other road users and identifying the earliest indications of that action, (eg watching where drivers look, seeing a momentary hesitation as the make a decision/change their mind, knowing when to watch the wheels and when to watch the drivers eyes etc).
    Sometimes it looks like a sixth sense, sometimes even feels like it, however it is actually experience and learned skills.
    One of the reasons that the more you ride the safer you can get!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. LaidBack
    Member

    Anth This morning on Stafford Street why did the private hire driver feel the need to put the foot down when I was crossing some way ahead?

    Maybe they're trying to emulate black cab rage?

    Two instances of Edinburgh hackney cabs being used as weapons in one week! If two people had been run over by cyclists you would never hear the end of it...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. wingpig
    Member

    "And I just can’t fathom the utter stupidity of people"

    I am protected from thoughts like these by having maintained healthy levels of misanthropy and pessimism since I was a teeny child, always being pleasantly surprised when someone acts decently or sensibly.

    Selfishness isn't peculiar to cities but is perhaps (where the inclination theretowards pre-exists) exacerbated by the concentration of people. Nowadays, with the aid of an internetful of opposing opinions and inflammatory news-media, the incipiently selfish who aren't exposed to that many real people can still have their inclination to shove and elbow steepened. Whilst the place I grew up in was far from being a remote rural idyll it was certainly less every-person-for-themself than it is now.

    I often wonder if the problem is that people object to being forced to think momentarily or take responsibility or make a difficult decision: when they come up behind a cyclist they have to make the decision to try and pass (endangering their car by putting some of it into the path of oncoming traffic) or to just stay behind, perhaps anticipating the impatience which could build up behind them and be pinned on them.

    ***

    As well as accelerating towards crossing pedestrians another driver-action I have an inability to view empathically is the accelerate-towards-red-light reflex. If you know you're going to have to stop a short distance ahead just coast, saving fuel and brake-pad-depletion.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. PS
    Member

    "do cyclists develop a sixth sense?"

    No, they just learn to use the senses they have better. When I got back into cycling I noticed pretty early on just how much more you saw and heard on a bike than you do in a car. You then add knowledge and the ability to guess what other road users are up to as you gain greater experience of cycling in traffic.

    If anything, the reverse happens as a motorist. You start off nervously looking at every other vehicle on the road, trying to work out what they're going to do, then you get confident in your own abilities and allow yourself to get distracted by the radio, your passengers, your thoughts - and it's easy to do this as you're sitting in a comfortable warm box, closed off from the wider world.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. TwoWheels
    Member

    My impression is that people tend to get very short-tempered around the holidays in these parts. Instead of being grateful for the chance to put their feet up in front of the fire and quaff rum and eggnog until Aunt Betty gets all misty-eyed and trots out the story about the time Uncle Harry used the leaf blower to get the BBQ grill started (which was before his truly unfortunate accident with the tuba), people are rushing about from this mall to that, skittering around for nonexistent parking so they can spend money they don't have on shoddily-made Chinese goods which will break and be forgotten by next Wednesday. (And yes, thank you, that was the longest sentence ever written in the English language).

    All of which tends to make people a little short-tempered and nasty to their fellow beings at precisely the time of year in which all focus is placed on charity and good will. Indeed, God does laugh, and heartily so.

    What I'm trying to get to, but all of these words keep getting in the way, is that at least in these parts, winter holiday time is for me the least enjoyable and most dangerous, people for the most part subsiding to their least common denominator of being insufferable twits.

    There. Happy Holidays.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Humbug! Humbug, TwoWheels? Lovely minty fresh humbugs, only $1.29 a quarter.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. TwoWheels
    Member

    Beauty sells. I'll take 2, please.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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