CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
From rb’s link
“
A study published in the ESB magazine in 2018 shows that the payback time of the construction is about five years.
“
Also suggests no speed limits for electric bikes in the Netherlands.
One problem with electric bikes is cost.
Clearly much less than a car (except very secondhand ones). There are definitely people who could (and do) replace a (second?) car with an EB.
There are many people who would benefit from EBs who don’t have a car, couldn’t afford one - or an EB.
@sallyhinch, in @bax's defence that cat really looks Russian. Did your neighbours call it Rasputin? Now, there was a cat that really was gone
@chdot: Also suggests no speed limits for electric bikes in the Netherlands.
I think that line in the Maximum Speed table is misleading. The footnote does say:
The same traffic rules apply to the electric bicycle as to the 'normal' bicycle. Only the pedal assistance is made in a way that increases the bicycle movement to 25 km / h. When the speed is more than 25 km / hour, this is due to the 'fast' cycling of the cyclist, not through the pedal assistance.
However, the next two sentences do seem to confuse the issue a bit:
A maximum speed of 30 km / h applies to the electric bicycle in the bicycle tunnel of the Maastunnel . Due to the height difference of the slope, a speed can be developed that is dangerous for the other road users in the bicycle tunnel.
If the danger arises from bicycles easily being able to reach speeds in excess of 30kmph because of the slope, it would seem to make little difference how they are powered!
Bottom line: I suspect that the usual caveat lector rule applies to Wikipedia, especially where Google Translate has been let loose on the original text.
Since the UK's rules about e-bikes are based on the same European standard as the rest of the EU (EN 15194), I'd be surprised if the Netherlands did actually allow unlicensed & untaxed e-bikes to exceed the 25kmph limit for power assistance laid down in said standard. Specifically, the 2017 version of the standard defines an Electrically Power Assisted Cycle (EPAC) as: "electrically power assisted bicycles of a type which have a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the EPAC reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling."
(Note also that, according to the Belgian magazine article linked in footnote 11, road speed limits do apply to cyclists in Belgium!)
@gembo, she was actually called Compo, not after the Last of the Summer Wine character but because he was a stonemason and she was the colour of mortar (aka compo)
25 kmph is max e-assisted speed for all EU states as far as I know. That means that Urban Arrow produce the same e-cargo bike for here as back in NL. Having common rules means it's easier to build stuff and hope Scotland at least will not allow faster e-bike speeds.
Light mopeds in NL (aka Brommers) are limited in speed too (in theory). They can use cycle paths generally but there are some local variations.
https://www.swov.nl/en/facts-figures/factsheet/moped-and-light-moped-riders
> I am conscious of energy use with the internet, but not (yet)
> willing to quantify...
I think CCE uses about 4W. Bytemark who do our hosting try and do passive cooling, so I've not counted that in. When the weathers hot that might double to 8W
@sallyhinch, yes the smudges of composite mortar on stone Masons' faces do have that exact blue hue
@cf
Interesting!
Was more thinking of general browsing/usage - individually and collectively.
(Not forgetting the absurd energy usage for BitCoin etc.)
Hypothetically speaking, what WWCCED (What Would CCE'ers Do) if you spotted a customised e-bike that has no-pedal power assist and no speed limiter?
There's one I see regularly and it has had a child seat on it too.
(not even mentioning the petrol-powered bike that someone's made that whizzes along the bike path near Balgreen tram stop...)
When I was passed by a trail bike sans registration plate being ridden on its rear wheel up Craiglockhart Avenue I reported it to 101. They made an appointment for two officers to visit and view my dashcam footage (sadly, Police Scotland seem to regard videos as some kind of witchcraft which cannot be allowed to enter their hallowed portals).
Not much they could do on the basis of that evidence alone but it can be added to the pot of evidence forming part of a wider investigation (in that case, into the unregistered motorcycle scourge).
I'd suggest a similar approach, pointing out the location(s) where the offending vehicle is regularly to be found and offering video evidence should they wish to view it.
At least one police force south of the border (Norfolk Constabulary) not only accepts video submissions but actually acts on them to the extent of pursuing driving offences based on such evidence. Whether there is something in Scots Law that would prevent that happening here I don't know, but I tend to suspect lethargy or simple lack of interest as being more likely reasons.
@sallyinch great to finally put a name to a cat i've admired from afar for so long
anyway just as well its your neighbours concern as, lets face it, that kitchen floor could do with a good scrub, eh
LivD - depends if it was causing a nuisance or not...
Spotted a full-suss MTB on Corstorphine Road with a large rear hub wizzed passed me with his feet not moving...
@sallyhinch, in @bax's defence that cat really looks Russian
https://twitter.com/sallyhinch/status/745007941397397505
totally, magnificently, ruski
Here's a Tuesday teaser for the hive mind.
Are e-bikes legal off road?
The road traffic act give specific permission to e-bikes with certain characteristics to be ridden on the road but there is not such caveats in the Scottish land act.
With motor vehicles being explicitly excluded from the access rights does that mean that e-bikes are technically illegal when used off road? (Other than when "constructed or adapted for use by a person who has a disability and which is being used by such a person").
Surely if they are street-legal as bikes (max 15mph powered) they will be allowed anywhere bikes are(?)
A lawyer says:
A lot of ebikes have an off-road mode without said limitation. I've only used one on private land.
@steveo: Nothing sold as a road legal e-bike (i.e. compliant with the EAPC regulations) should have any such mode. If it does then it's classed as a motorcycle & must be registered & insured, and the rider must wear a helmet, in order for it to be ridden on the public road, regardless of the mode it's operating in at any given time.
My eMTB has four assistance levels (or "modes", if you will) but even the ones called "eMTB" and "Turbo" are compliant with the EAPC regulations in terms of the maximum assistance they provide and the cutoff speed.
Politicians and lobbyists being what they are, I could foresee any future attempt at clarifying in statute the issue outlined in the linked article to incline towards prohibition by default. (Note that the right of access to designated open access land in England and Wales which was created in the Countryside Rights of Way Act 2000 does not include cycling at all, other than on the appropriate classes of public rights of way e.g. bridleways. Reference.)
Nothing sold as a road legal e-bike (i.e. compliant with the EAPC regulations) should have any such mode.
I've read conflicting opinions on this. Also none of the kits I've looked at would comply!
@Frenchy, That article is a good one. It covers most of the arguments I came up with and some others. I don't see how e-bikes can't create more damage than non e-bikes. Although at the same time I am sure that a descending MTB will be far more damaging than any bike with 250W of assistance.
@Steveo, in addition to ejstubbs point it seems clear that unlimited e-MTBs are not permitted under the land act. Individual land owners (eg forestry commission) can presumably permit them.
@ejstubbs, My feeling in E&W is that a road legal e-bike is probably legal to use anywhere a bike is permitted at least other than where the permission is granted by the class of route. ie it would be fine to use on a bridleway (road traffic law) but perhaps not at a trail centre (land owner granting permisison).
As Frenchy's article alludes to I suspect it will take a land owner deciding they don't want them on their land for a clear legal position to be reached.
I've gone and done some more reading.
EN15194 applies to the construction of bicycles and not to kits. The kits almost all have a larger than 250w motors but since the rating is actually 250w continuous power even a road legal one could have a larger output the only way to check is to look on the label. You can buy 250w stickers...
The other problem is the lcd display allows the user to set the cut-off speed, ostensibly because the hub could be laced to any sized wheel there for the rpm to mph maybe different.
But on both counts riding a bike with a DIY kit could theoretically land you in a load of trouble.
Must have confused the second point with the "off road" button.
@steveo: EN15194 applies to the construction of bicycles and not to kits.
But the law which defines the technical requirements an e-bike has to meet in order not to be classed as a motor vehicle is based on that standard, so it comes down to the same thing at the end of the day: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules.
This comprehensive post from an informed source on pedelecs.co.uk gives pretty much chapter and verse on the law relating to road legal e-bikes. It includes a section dedicated to the issue of kit motors, the key parts of which I reproduce here for completeness:
...both individuals and suppliers operate in a legal vacuum in which all try to supply and/or use as closely conforming to the complete e-bike law as they can, trusting that is acceptable. That has always worked throughout all of Europe and the UK without any mention of a possible prosecution, providing the three main points of the law are adhered to, i.e. 250 watts maximum assist, 15.5 mph maximum assist speed and power only when pedalling.
However, I can tell you the legal way of dealing with a kit, athough no-one has ever done it:
1) Buy and fit the motor kit.
2) Make an appointment at an approved vehicle testing station, paying the £55 test fee.
3) Most often the purpose of this is to get an SVA (Single Vehicle Approval), entitling it for use as a type approved motor vehicle. However your intention will be to get the inspector to agree that it meets the [EAPC] requirements so is exempt from being a motor vehicle and is approved as a [EAPC].
It seems abundantly clear (at least, to anyone not trying to find a way to justify the illegal use of a non-compliant e-bike) that anything, whether manufactured or kit-built, that doesn't meet the EAPC standard is classed a motor vehicle and thus must be registered, taxed, insured and ridden as one in order to be used anywhere other than on private land with the permission of the landowner. The fact that some people "get away with it" doesn't of itself make it legal (see also driving offences such as speeding, using a mobile phone while driving etc etc which I imagine everyone on this forum would deprecate).
Note that the post also discusses twist-and-go throttles. These were legal (in the sense of not being specifically illegal) under the 1983 regulations, but were outlawed in the 2015 regulations. However, a bike manufactured or built to comply with the 1983 regulations before 1/1/2016 could continue to be used under "grandfather rights" so long as it remained unmodified BUT that also meant that the motor was limited to 200W as allowed under the 1983 regulations, rather than the 250W allowed from 2015. However, it is actually theoretically possible to get an otherwise compliant 250W EAPC with a twist-and-go throttle approved as a "250W Low Powered Moped", which would also not be classed as a motor vehicle, but again it's unclear whether anyone has ever tried this.
It seems abundantly clear (at least, to anyone not trying to find a way to justify the illegal use of a non-compliant e-bike) that anything, whether manufactured or kit-built, that doesn't meet the EAPC standard is classed a motor vehicle
Except that I'm trying to find a kit which does comply with the law, my cargo bike is conspicuous enough without the risk of something happening and the police deciding a random function on the handlebar control, or the peak power being closer to 400w and that I will there for get banned for 2 years and hit with a huge fine.
(for reference most decent motors will have a peak power that way outstrips the 250w nominal)
The fact that some people "get away with it" doesn't of itself make it legal (see also driving offences such as speeding, using a mobile phone while driving etc etc which I imagine everyone on this forum would deprecate).
Its not about trying to get away with it, least not in my case. I'm sure there are plenty of folks pushing their ebikes in to small ptw territory but just trying to get a kit which complies with the law is the problem here.
But the law which defines the technical requirements an e-bike has to meet in order not to be classed as a motor vehicle is based on that standard, so it comes down to the same thing at the end of the day: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules.
and the point here is that it is not possible to buy a EN whatever certified kit simply because the law to be certified does not apply to kits there for none are certified.
Interesting, if you have an official S-pedelec you're not allowed to carry children on it (or use a trailer). You can legally carry children on motorbikes though, so getting an SVA for your bike to be a motorbike, not any kind of pedelec, would allow you to still use it for the school / nursery run.
In either case, you need to MOT, motorbike helmet etc.
Personally, I wish that we had the US style 20mph cut off so you could keep up with traffic in 20 zones.
I've experienced quite a lot of impatient overtakes while pegging along at the 16mph limit, no doubt there would still be some if you were doing 20, but there's definitely a lot more incidents than on my road bike where I can keep up a bit easier.
Pre-covid I used to take the A70 all the way into work at the west end, but after getting the ebike for nursery duties I switched to riding it along the canal. It was just a bit more nerve racking at key points like the slip road for the west approach rd.
It's also annoying that the 250W cut-off applies equally to bikes with one lightweight rider and to a cargo bike. I can see how this is simpler to enforce, but you'd think the power restriction might be based on W/kg rather than simply the wattage.
On a solo bike SWMBO could be getting close to 4W/kg of boost, but when I do the nursery run on our longtail I'm only getting 1.5W/kg which means it can still be a sweaty business and there are some routes I avoid due to hills, despite being on an e-bike.
This is when I looked into an S-pedelec that would legally give you sixteen times higher maximum power. Unfortunately you can't take passengers and you can't use cycle routes or even bus lanes (unless they are permitted for all motorbikes). What could have been a car replacement turned out to be a bit of a white elephant.
“you need to MOT“
Will all MOT testing places DO bikes?
There may or may not be some (partial) answers here, and/or scope for asking questions/raising issues -
@Dave - I guess some overtaking when your e-bike is at its 25kmph max is due to the fact that the upright ride position and effortless pedalling style 'reads' as a slower bike than it is.
If you pull up in an ASL on an e-cargobike drivers behind automatically expect a slow start. In reality it's fast till the cut off and now with advance bike traffic lights you can be clean away from a junction before any car has moved. Many drivers think cycling is hard work - speaking to neighbours to shop they really don't understand how e-bikes (or any bike) can move so much.
The output of the Bosch Cargoline motor does legally peak at well over 500w - pedal torque is 85Nm but has to be set at 75Nm to avoid damaging the inner of an Enviolo (NuVinci) hub. Larger UAs use a Rohloff but that forces price too high for much of the market. These peak power outputs have of course not much bearing on top speed but simply allow hills to be flattened faster. Even the original Steps motors with 55Nm torque work well.
Higher powered bikes like Radwagon end up wearing out chains and rear blocks - battery gets used up faster too. More charge cycles shorten battery life etc.
It's surprising how much faster the chains wear out. I would guess I've changed the chain on the Nihola twice as often!
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