“It’s not a blind spot, it’s a fail-to-look-spot,” says truck driver Clive Matthews to the claim that trucks have blind spots that lead to fatalities on Britain’s roads."
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Lorries do not have blind spots
(31 posts)-
Posted 5 years ago #
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Not sure that is entirely accurate for all types of truck, but yes it does highlight the importance of being aware of surroundings. That should be true of both vehicle driver and cyclist though.
Posted 5 years ago # -
If, as he says, all trucks have to have this 'forward mirror', then I don't get why we are always told drivers 'can't see us in front of them'.
are there some trucks on the road without those mirrors?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Standard road craft is never to enter a piece of road you can't see to be clear for the distance in which you can stop. If these lorries' drivers can't see in front of them then they can't safely be driven at all.
Posted 5 years ago # -
The problem is, there are about 10 different mirrors and cameras a lorry driver needs to check before making a turn, or even before setting off.
The driver is overloaded with things to look at...
To check every mirror and every window adequately before making a turn, the driver would have to literally stop before every turn and then proceed at 1mph.
Posted 5 years ago # -
An enlightening thread:
Try and check all the mirrors and blind spots on the latest trucks on a dark rainy night in heavy traffic. Even then it is still possible to miss things, and the amount of effort required, at every junction means it never gets done. Those trucks are lethal. But you know that
https://twitter.com/avlawson/status/1083245224078516227
and
Read the whole thread: https://twitter.com/carltonreid/status/1083128986723647488
Posted 5 years ago # -
Not actually bread the link, on my phone, it dosnt connect too well while I am driving, JOKE ! Modern trucks do indeed have on the drivers side two mirrors, two on the passenger side, one “ normal “ large and one, wide angle, fish eye type. The passenger, near side also has a downward facing. Slightly wide angle “ kerb “ mirror. The front screen also has a down and out facing mirror that shows the area in front of the cab . Mine also has a kerb side alert system that audibly alarms if anything, car truck fence pedestrian cyclist is within the” hidden area” this also automatically changes the screen fitted to the dash board to show the whole area from the front corner, kerb side all the way back along the cab and trailer. The blind spots, don’t like that term are almost illuminated. One big problem is the speed that an approaching cyclist can travel alongside the wagon while its stationary, it can be difficult but not impossible to safely know where the cyclist, car , pedestrians is if they move along the side. A car, cyclist, pedestrian , bus, can be right behind the truck in the true blind spot, and I can’t see it, I look into all my near side driving aids and see nothing, I move off and the bus, car , cyclist moves to my near side and can in a very short period of time be right under my passenger door. MOST. Cyclists are pretty good at looking into my mirrors, car drivers not so ! I agree most blind spots arnt really that, however, the driving aids can let you see nearly all of the world but as the vehicle position changes the field of view also changes. There are stupid , selfish and downright dangerous lorry drivers, most are courteous and considerate, there are also stupid selfish and downright dangerous cyclists, car drivers and pedestrians , we still need to share the road spaces so perhaps we can all try and be as safe as we can be !! I personally would like low level windows in the near side doors , some utility vehicles have these, as did some old bmc trucks. ( oldies might remember! ) as a slight aside, I would rather drive a wagon in Edinburgh or Glasgow all day than one journey in Aberdeen centre, king street seems to be a magnet for ninja cyclists who think they have super powers that just pick up an artic and move it out the way !!! Thank goodness for the new bypass!
Anyway happy new watsit to all and enjoy the coming yearPosted 5 years ago # -
Great post @splitshift, very informative
Posted 5 years ago # -
When the cab of an articulated lorry is turned versus the trailer, there are definitely blind spots. On a tight left turn, the left mirrors would be looking at the side of the trailer & the right mirrors out to open air on the right (and not down the right-hand side of the trailer).
It is misleading & dangerous to say that trucks have no blind-spots, as artics clearly do, especially in urban situations where they could be making tight turns.
Posted 5 years ago # -
When the cab of an articulated lorry is turned versus the trailer, there are definitely blind spots."
Would tend to agree with the sentiments mis leading and dangerous if someone acted on the basis of this article could end up being crushed.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Take a look at this video and tell me lorries do not have blind spots. No way the driver could have seen the bike, the bike is obscured by the A-pillar & the left mirror itself, the whole time the manuevre is being performed*:
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33622318
also here:
.
(Edit) *It's possible the driver could have seen the bike out of the left door window before starting the turn. But at that point the motorbike could have been a very long way away (or obscured by trees, parked cars, street furniture, etc.)Posted 5 years ago # -
As I said, as the vehicle moves the field of vision changes, creating “ blind spots” I think I also explained how the blind spots , are created and “ uncreated” with various driving aids. Again , we all HAVE use shared roads , and as such we need to respect ALL road users to keep us all safe. Obviously, as a member of this forum , I cycle, lots, have done so a lot longer than I have driven artics, the mirrors have changed in design and number etc over the years and no doubt will continue to improve. I am sure there is a well seen interweb video of the artic with someone in the cab being asked how many cyclists are nearby, they say none, the camera pans back and there is something like 25 cyclists in very close proximity, all of them children ! I take my professional driving seriously, I am involved in training new drivers, and always ask them if they have children , and how they would drive a wagon close to those cyclists !! I was once involved in an altercation , conversation , with an irrate motorist who thought I was holding them up because I was driving at the legal limit, not speeding, on the A9 , pre 50 mph limit. I asked her if she had children and which school they attended and when exactly they would be wanting me to speed past the school? That conversation sort of petered out! Hgv do have blind spots, however technical limitation is no excuse for crap driving ! If we could get every cyclist to think that hgv drivers can never see cyclists then perhaps the conflicts could be reduced? The more education that takes place can only be a good thing, even if it just a conversation on a forum that MIGHT just be heard in the real world and save a life
Posted 5 years ago # -
The rigid hiring the Ducati, sorry crap driving, if you can’t see into a street where you are entering on the wrong side of the road, get off your arse , and look all around, the seat belt keeps you from exiting the windscreen in an accident, it dosnt stop you moving up and down and around, your neck also allows for movement of your head!. Blind spot , yes, and you can in the right circumstances hide another artic behind a mirror but that is just poor driving! Watch if you can a good driver, his body moves all the time , he , or she, ( sorry !) knows the limitations of his view and should adjust his position accordingly! Common sense really !!!
Posted 5 years ago # -
dosnt stop you moving up and down and around
Oh come on. It shouldn't have to be a requirement of a competent lorry driver to move up and down on the seat every time they make a turn.
The cab design is at fault here. The manufacturer should be sued as a class action, until they get the message...
PS. It's great that you yourself make that extra effort to move up and down. But it shouldn't be necessary if the cab design were safe.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Even cars, with better all round vision, require driver movement to properly observe the road.
Large A-pillars have a big part to play here, but "shoulder checks" have always been valuable.
https://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/
Whilst direct vision is good (roll on transparent A-pillars!), drivers should expect to have to move rather than simply glance in a small arc.
Robert
Posted 5 years ago # -
I bet RAF pilots do not move up and down on the seat.
I bet RAF pilots do not move left and right in the seat.
They are strapped in tight with a 6-point harness to keep them securely fixed to the seat in the event of an ejection, if nothing else.
They rotate their heads, yes.
I also bet that RAF jets have great all-round vision and no requirement for mirrors or cameras (except possibly for use on the ground).
I rest my case, sirs.
Posted 5 years ago # -
"Recognise the risk of being in a saccade"
I didn't imagine this would rest well with the hive.
Re RAF pilots, well fighter pilots in general. There's quite a lot of YouTube videos (other providers are available), and they do appear to chuck themselves arround the cockpit quite a bit when playing at dogfights, looking over shoulder, behind, or below level of windscreen etc.
Come to think of it, the ones I've seen are mostly American pilots flying F18's. They are probably prone to being a bit meladramatic, RAF pilots would be much more composed I suspect, you know chalks away chaps type of thing.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I'm not sure you can compare a fighter jet cockpit which is designed purely to keep it's occupant safe while performing their duty with a road vehicle. A fighter jet's main purpose after all is it's ability to kill those outside the cockpit. The jets and similar aircraft also make use of radar (ground and on aircraft) to know what is in their vicinity.
I used to fly gliders and can assure you that other than not crashing into the ground the most important thing you learn is to keep a good lookout. This involves constantly moving your head to look for what it ahead/above and beside you. However your view below and behind is severely restricted. If you are flying backwards or going vertically downwards you have rather greater issues than not being able to see where you are going.
As splitshift says the seatbelts in road vehicles are designed to allow the driver to move around because the driver is expected to move around. If someone cannot be bothered to move around while working perhaps they should be considering a desk job.
Posted 5 years ago # -
@ nedfdie, no your right, it isn’t a requirement to move every time you turn , but it is necessary to look and see where your going! Nearly every driver I know, car , bus , hgv will also look behind as they reverse, they do have mirrors but it’s a better view if you look all round, the vehicle, MAY have a blind spot, again I hate that term behind the mirror but the vehicle didn’t appear to slow too much and took a wide turn into a street, onto the wrong side of the road, the motor cycle must have been travelling at the exactly required speed to maintain its position behind the mirror. I don’t particularly like Iveco vehicles but I still reckon it’s pilot error! There is a tendency among some( hgv) driversto sit low down in the seat, curtains across the side glass and appear almost hidden . These tend to be the same trucks that have lots of lights , sidepipes and “ funny” comments painted on them . The vehicles we all drive might not be perfect, but we HAVE to drive them , a class action against a manufacturer would I. My opinion go no where, the risk assessment is covered by the use of a fully qualified and examined operator, who performs dynamic risk assessment as they operate . Drivers always going to get blamed! RAF. Pilots, they tend not to fly into side streets where aircraft are parked at 500 mph! The operators ( pilots) are supposed to know the dimensions of their vehicle, and unless in a state of conflict are restricted very seriously in what they can and cannot do ! If they clip a mountain , other plane, or any other air user they are to blame , wether they move in their cabin or not! Fighter pilots tend to also , have a windscreen that isn’t just in front, it curves around their head ! Apache drivers don’t even look out! They have a heads up display in their goggles that gets a feed from a camera under the vehicle, it moves with their head !
Pilot, driver error is always the reason , although I do agree with you to a certain extent ! Many other vehicles have inherent problems but we just have to accept them ! Besides, compensation is generally cheaper than retooling a while factory ! Just ask ford ! I believe it was their pinto that was designed badly and the springs were causing fuel tank ruptured and fire , 60s I think , they actually stayed it was cheaper to pay out than redesignPosted 5 years ago # -
OK, OK, but on a building site, a banksman is required for lorries due to Health and Safety at Work reasons.
But strangely, on the public highway, with much greater risks (like members of the public, cyclists & children being present) this doesn't seem to be a requirement.
If the driver that crashed into the motorbike had had a banksman to help him make that turn, the workload on the driver would have been reduced and the crash likely would not have happened.
Posted 5 years ago # -
@ acsimpson where did you glide? We used to take our kids to Kirk newton , I believe they have an operating sqn there again . Used condor too and have used the vikings, out of Linton on Ouse, tells you what I was involved with !!!! Still like watching all the baby pilots doing circuits at tayside !! Huge glass cockpit for all round visibility ! ACTUALLY !!! cause this is a bike forum , I see a gent on the a90 most days he appears to travel from Dundee into perth and back every day, older gent, see him so often now he actually looks and waves, unless he’s a strange truck fan and waves at them all !! Yes there are some of them too !
Posted 5 years ago # -
People in building sites are covered by the health and safety at work act, on the public highway it’s the road traffic act,
, you stated, “ the driver that crashed......”
driver error ! If we were to remove all vehicles from our highways because the courts decided that they were too dangerous to use then nothing would happen , nothing would move no one could go anywhere! Big business would be hurt !!!! Acceptable risk ! Sad but true. The truck manufacturers would then place an action against the mirror manufacturer, the mirror manufacturer would then claim against the road designers , etc etc etc. Blame the driver, ( his fault anyway) move on make more money . I know this might sound silly but we use various scenarios relating to risk assessment and one question , of many would be , did the rider take reasonable actions to ensure he didn’t place himself in harms way, could the delivery have been at a different time, if the vehicle had been double manned would the drivers mate seen more, was the driver Ill, was the sun light in his eyes, etc etc etc I am going to check the video and to be honest it appears the rider saw the truck from a fair distance away, now I am not victim blaming here, but, an insurance company, with good lawyers, afforded by large companies, might go down that route.
Anyway, trucks are, inherently problematic when they are in conflict with pedestrians and cyclists, blind spots , or not, moving drivers , or not, let’s just stay as safe as we can bePosted 5 years ago # -
One of the things about CCE that I enjoy the best is the Eclectic mix of experiences from the posters.
Can I just say thank you to Splitshift for sharing his views (pun intended) from the cab. More inciteful than watching Convoy every Saturday through the 80s.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Convoy, a good film but many other truck porn available !!!! On reviewing the video, the truck I question actually has low level window fitted!!!!! Even more driver error!!! As far as I could see, it was that London , it appeared that the road the truck was leaving was 3 possibly 4 lanes, two normals and one poss two bus lanes, he should , and here it gets nasty, indicated nearside, which he, or she, did do and then positioned his vehicle so that no one could pass in his nearside, and waited till a suitable gap appeared in the on coming traffic so that he she could take a wide turn into oncoming traffic lane when he she could SEE it was clear. If another large vehicle was approaching in the place of the motor cycle then possibly all would have kept moving, on. Oming traffic would see it in their lane , traffic behind would be stationary and see his intention and traffi in the side road would see the approach and see his wide, but not too encroaching manuover. Every day on nearly every journey truck drivers have to asses situations like this thousands of times, mostly it goes well and people look on amazed at the skill of a mere hairy arsed trucker, for a second then get on with life. Ask MOST police officers and emergency vehicle drivers, and they will say that hgv drivers are generally the easiest to deal with because they observe much more than car drivers !!
Posted 5 years ago # -
@splitshift. I started out with a few trial flights at Kirknewton in the mid nineties while in the cadets. I then had a one week course at Condor before going civy and joining the SGC at Portmoak. I have never "officially" and would still love to find time to fly again. However it's been almost 15 years since I was last a member of a club.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Cadets yep my son joined and I became a ci! Take it you got a gliding scholarship, at condor? My son got full powered flight scholarship at tayside, our sqn has a fantastic relationship with tayside, we acquired funding and our own piper warrior at our disposal , one cadet driving, older ones, and two younger in the back !!! The vikings, I think that’s what they were at Linton we’re something else! Powered take off and then feather props and switch of engine !!! Spent a weekend down there doing some other cadet training and the weather was fantastic so they just said, right flights are go , who wants it !!!25 cadets up both days for hours !!!
Posted 5 years ago # -
My days at kirknewton predated the powered gliders. It was somewhere between 1992 and 1996.
The gliders I flew were all winch launched (other than one overseas flight). IIRC the winch launched ones were the vikings and were later replaced with the powered valiants.
Sadly a quick google search suggests Condor VGS closed in 2016 and all the valiants were retired and then scrapped last year. Kirknewton seems to still be using the Viking.
Posted 5 years ago # -
2535 Sqn back in the day. Would have loved to have had a shot in a glider, but alas the operchancity never arose.
Did get up in a chipmunk a few times from Turnhouse. 2535 were renouned for their drill squad at that time, which I was lucky enough to be apart of. Won drill championship at Turnhouse, and was also a member of the guard of honour when Queenie visited Turnhouse.
Fond memories, we have an atc in burntisland which I hope the boy will find of interest when he is old enough.Posted 5 years ago # -
I went up in a glider in 1987-88 from Portmoak one Saturday. I was expecting Thomas crowne affair floating type experience. Much buffeting later I understood gliding to be different in reality from my imagination. Any parachutes? Gave the instructor a laff.
I avoid going up the inside of HGV and also buses unless the pavement is also clear.
Posted 5 years ago #
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