CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
It's possible to think that people broadly do good, and whose opinions, in general, you agree with, without agreeing with everything single thing they say/do/think.
For what it's worth I think it's a good idea to be able to have a beer with people you broadly disagree with and who you think are doing harm as long as that harm isn't intentional or grotesque.
Mc-A is putting the FU back into Urban Design.
In my younger days I was in Car Wash and smoking one rolled up cigarette whilst rolling another and lighting it before I noticed I had one already going. Some people at the other table mistook this for a Fringe performance. THis other table was out drinking with someone who they profoundly disagreed with (he was a tube) but he was buying all the drink (he was a tube about that too)
Harts - I think its great (particularly given the current political climate) when people can agree to disagree on issues.
His arguments against e-bikes are nonsensical, as are his views on cycle specific clothing - thankfully it's government policy that really drives modal choice, not my (ahem) "fashion sense".
It's easy to argue that "the cycle culture" involves three-speed town bikes and woollen coats when you are fit, have no fears over personal safety and live in a pancake-flat city with hundreds of miles of segregated cycle lane. While there is much to admire in this approach, it is not all applicable to a city built on hills with the most rudimentary of cycle infrastructure. There is room for more than one cycle culture.
Mikael Colville-Andersen is certainly getting lots of feedback on his assertion that e-bikes are for lazy people!
Did remind me though that Danish / continental style upright cycling is seen by many as the real thing. A proper bike should be accessorised with style as a bike is extension of your clothing. (Aka cycle chic).
Altura Night Vision jackets, helmets and especially recumbent bikes are all obstacles to his 'normalisation' of cycling (!). Cargo bikes fitness in his view depends on power unit.
MCA could apply the same aesthetic & appropriateness to car users. Then we would only encourage good looking cars into our streets :-)
I'm cool with all the variants as this isn't Copenhagen and we need alliances not divisions.
Morningsider, I think you are missing his point (and mine and others) about cycle culture. When you have cycling as a normal mode of transport, it's just people (all people in whatever clothes they prefer to wear) riding bikes. They dress for their destination, not for cycling per se. If it's cold they wear a big coat. If it's warm they wear t-shirt and shorts.
It's only people who are cycling significant distances that actually have to dress for cycling and that's great - good for them! But it's not mass cycling, it's more of a sporting pursuit which doubles as transport. Wonderful, but only appealing to a tiny minority of the travelling public.
The gains are in journey under 5 miles and especially under 3 miles. Most normal people could comfortably cycle that far without dressing up specially or feeling like it's an athletic undertaking and that's the people we need to get on bikes.
This, of course, needs proper cycle infrastructure - which is what he and I and others are espousing. If you want mass cycling, you need proper, safe cycle infrastructure so that people don't feel the need to wear hi-viz or (whisper it) helmets.
Everyone on a bicycle is a hero, but we could have many more heroes if we built some infrastructure that made most people want to ride a bike. And you can do that whether or not your city is hilly or flat.
Re ebikes, MCA has a technical issue with them re the infrastructure pressures they're creating in the Netherlands, whereby they are now having to divide cycle lanes for bikes and ebikes, because of the speed differential. I understood this was mostly an issue with speedbikes (45km/h, illegal here) but he insists pedelecs (25km/h) are an issue too.
We are soooo far away from this being a problem (and because we have lots of hills) this is something we don't really have to worry about, but it's a big part of his objection to them).
Harts - I 100% agree with you about the need for the development of a coherent, city-wide network of segregated cycle routes - fed by traffic calmed residential streets. This needs to be backed by restrictions on car use and limitations on parking - carrot and stick.
I also agree that, if we ever reach that stage, then cycling will become the natural choice for short-mid distance trips. As part of that process, people will generally choose to travel in non-cycling specific clothes.
However, I do think that Edinburgh's hilly terrain would still mean that people would continue to favour lighter bikes, with more gears and choose more cycle specific clothing - simply for its breathability. In addition, I see a role for electric bikes in Edinburgh, again due to the terrain.
I suppose the point I was trying to make earlier, was that it is fine for cycle campaigners to criticise governments for their poor efforts - particularly a failure to deliver on fine words and good intentions. However, I don't think it is fine for cycle campaigners to criticise individuals for "doing cycling wrong" - whether that be for the bike they use or the clothes they wear.
What is it that tips someone in Edinburgh today from being a non-cyclist to a cyclist? If it's a hi-vis jacket, helmet, retina-searing lights or something I can't even think of, then I say good luck to them. Whatever it takes to get them to push that bike out of the door for the first time and think "I can do this".
Should anyone wanting to cycle they have to do this? No - it is simply a sad reflection on the reality of cycling in Edinburgh today. I hope this changes.
Are Edinburgh cyclists responsible for putting others off cycling through their choice of clothes, bike or anything else? No.
I genuinely think we agree on pretty much everything. Possibly the forum format doesn't really lend itself to nuanced argument (or more likely, I haven't expressed myself properly). Always up for a chat at PY or CCE beers.
“
The report is also clear on how to achieve more cycling. In his introduction to the report Khan’s cycling and walking supremo, Will Norman, notes that Dutch and Danish cities are filled with bikes not due to some cultural quirk, but “because their streets have been designed to prioritise people, not cars”.
...
To work, cycle routes have to be – both literally and figuratively – joined up. They have to be as useful for a parent meandering to a school or nursery, going to a job and then returning via a shop as they are for a rapid, end-to-end commuter.
“
I'm just back from Amsterdam, where I duly hired a bike (3 speed upright) and used it to get around. As anyone who has done this can tell you, it's really very pleasant to cycle around the city. However while there is segregated infrastructure, especially around main roads, there is relatively little in the main city centre. Quite a lot of UK style "on road" cycle lanes and in many cases no lane at all. However because nearly everyone cycles at least some of the time, this is rarely a problem. Drivers are more respectful and careful around cyclists. And yes, nearly everyone cycles in normal clothes, including women in high heeled boots etc. I did spot one guy in lycra with a helmet on a road racing bike but that was highly unusual. Also saw quite a few drop handlebar vintage racers being pedalled (in ordinary clothes) as well as the ubiquitous city bikes.
One way Amsterdam seems to keep traffic under control in the centre is very little on street parking anywhere - you still get delivery vans parked up on the pavement etc. but most cars are in underground car parks. Also an easy to understand one way system either side of canals, coupled with rising bollards in certain locations that presumably only let certain vehicles through or at certain times of day. Because there are so many people on bikes narrower streets have signs reading "Bicycles are guests" (in Dutch) to avoid folk hurtling down narrow crowded alleyways.
In general, none of the aggro between drivers and cyclists you see in the UK. I did witness a collision - between a cyclist and a pedestrian on a segregated cycle way. It seemed the person on foot was a tourist. As you'll know, there are a lot of tourists in Amsterdam (of which of course I was one). I'm glad I left before the weekend took hold as the crowds on Damrak yesterday were formidable. Imagine the Royal Mile during the Edinburgh Festival, but in early February, and you get the idea. Not much fun trying to cycle past that lot.
Now I'm back I'm not really looking forward to having to re-grow the eyes in the back of my heads required to keep an eye on menacing motorists bearing down on me on supposedly quiet Edinburgh streets.
Anyway, as I was saying:
Transport Committee paper:
One for the Tories to chew on - buried in Appendix 1 are the results to a question on the Workplace Parking Levy:
47% fully support
24% somewhat support
28% do not support
1% not answered
That's 71% support for the "hated SNP car park tax".
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