CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

It's quicker by bike

(26 posts)

  1. kaputnik
    Moderator

    We've debated electric motors and government subsidies for them in another thread, but I read this and thought I'd open the can of oligochetes up again;

    BBC man attempts to drive an electric MINI from London to Edinburgh using only public charging points.

    This vehicle, according to the article, attracts a £5,000 government subsidy. It's 484 miles and he's aiming to do it in 4 days. There's a gap between Northumberland and Scotland of 87 miles, larger than the vehicle's range.

    So I thought to myself - "It's quicker by bike" - and significantly cheaper! Now, where's my £5,000 subsidy please for not driving an internal combobulustion engine?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. seanspotatobusiness
    Member

    I think this sort of journey lies outside the electric car's niche. I don't think they're making a worthwhile point and they definitely don't deserve the attention of the public. What a waste of licence fee.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. ruggtomcat
    Member

    110+ miles a day on the bike is no joke either...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I think this sort of journey lies outside the electric car's niche

    Exactly what my thinking was. It's not the niche of most cylists either, however if you put the two up against eachother, their performance is similar.

    Were you to put the two up against eachother in the declared "niche" of the electric car - i.e. around town, I wonder which would come out on top... Actually, I don't wonder.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Yeah, saw this on BBC Breakfast and thought exactly the same thing, i.e. surely electric cars are best for pootling around town (thereby easing congestion in Hoverboard Hammond's little planet).

    I want a subsidy too! Odd isn't it, the 'clarification' of the Bike to Work scheme means a lot less is saved than would be spent per person on magic electric car subsidies.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. Min
    Member

    Yes, I can't work out what the point to it all is. Electric cars are aimed squarely at people who drive their spherical child half a mile to school then on another half mile to their work. Not for long journeys that can easily be made by train.

    Why doesn't the government subsidise electric bikes? This would get so many more people cycling, especially in Edinburgh where so many people claim they can't possibly cycle because there are too many hills.

    Still, at least we can all look forward to the guy being stranded somewhere between Newcastle and Edinburgh. :-P

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. wingpig
    Member

    If the point at which he'd run out of power could be estimated accurately enough it'd be good publicity for cycling if a small squad of cyclists were waiting at the appropriate location, ready to tow the car the last bit of the way.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "... people who drive their spherical child half a mile to school... "

    I'm saving that one for use as my own phrase of genius at a later date...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "ready to tow the car the last bit of the way"

    Smart!!!

    It'll probably be going slow to conserve energy, so could be slipstreamed until it glided to a halt.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Yes the problems that towns and cities have with road safety and traffic and congestion and parking and damage caused by road vehicles are not of cars powered by internal combustulation engines - it's one of cars full stop, and people having such silly, selfish and inconsiderate driving habits in the first place.

    Encouraging switching the school run / just-nipping-to-the-shops / drive-to-the-gym / one-person-one-car commute / my-street-is-my-carpark-and-its-my-god-give-right-to-park-anywhere-on-it to electric cars won't achieve anything at all. In fact if it lulls people into some sort of pretence that driving is now morally virtuous as the pollution is being created out of sight and out of mind at the point of generation then there's the possibility that it will in fact encourage yet more needless car miles.

    And what of the situation when people feel the need to have one electric car for urban driving and one IC car for longer journeys - giving us even more badly parked cars to try and cram onto our city streets.

    *Despairing sigh*

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. Morningsider
    Member

    I think this "experiment" highlights why electric cars as they currently stand will always be a niche product that do not deserve Government support. Even most city cars get the odd long distance run, e.g. at holiday time. How may people outside of major metro areas (i.e. London) would want to buy a car which cannot effectively go more than a few miles outwith the city limits for fear of running out of fuel. Most electric cars could not do Edinburgh-Glasgow and back in a day on one charge.

    Even if the car makes it to its destination, it then has to stay plugged to a charging point for hours to make sure it can get back. A petrol or diesel car can be re-fuelled in seconds. While people have a choice, I suspect intetrnal combustion will rule.

    I suppose what annoys me about UK Government support for these cars is that their niche is also the bike's real strength - short urban trips. How much of a difference would hundreds of millions of pounds make to bike use in the UK? Instead it is being used to feather bed foreign car and utility companies and make a few people feel smug about making the "eco" choice.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Min
    Member

    This is exactly my problem with electric cars. Plus you can bet there will be no outrage directed towards the drivers for not paying "road tax" (as I am guessing there won't be due to zero emissions from the actual car).

    "I'm saving that one for use as my own phrase of genius at a later date... "

    Hehehe!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. Morningsider
    Member

    Min - you are right, electric cars are not subject to vehicle tax. Next thing you know the "electricists" will all be jumping red lights and driving down the pavements...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. ruggtomcat
    Member

    you think this is bad? wait till the crack the hydrogen storage/production problem...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "Electric cars not accessible 'in next five years' "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12124895

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    Arrived in Edinburgh apparently.

    Man on radio said -

    "
    Range anxiety

    Berwick to Edinburgh was done at 30mph to avoid running battery down completely

    Overall 6 mph inc driving and charging time - though that doesn't really count unless it's thumb twiddling time.

    10 hour charge - so hardly convenient other than at home overnight

    Need to turn heater off so a bit cold

    "
    Full details -

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12138420

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "RAC Foundation complains about £5k e-car sweetener"

    http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/rac-foundation-complains-about-5k-e-car-sweetener

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. cb
    Member

    The comments on this page are reasonably interesting in a way that comments on BBC pages usually aren't:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2011/01/electric_car_challenge.html

    Lots of comment from a few folk who seem to know more or less what they are talking about, but it does degenirate into a bit of a slanging match.

    Only a few people have made the point about cycling/walking being generally better suited to short journeys.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. DaveC
    Member

    [quote=cb] Only a few people have made the point about cycling/walking being generally better suited to short journeys.

    Are there any articles or papers published showing the maximum distances suited to commuting by bike? I personally commute by train at the moment from Fife. Its around 1 hr & 1/5 commute time for me by bike, 35 mins ave longer than by train.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. Min
    Member

    I don't know about articles but it is generally considered that up to 5 miles one way by bike is reasonable. It seems pretty reasonable to me.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. wingpig
    Member

    "...it is generally considered that up to 5 miles one way by bike is reasonable. It seems pretty reasonable to me."

    As well as the mean-journey-length-of-seven-miles one of the comments quoted a stat about the scarily high percentage of journeys under a scarily short particular short distance. It'd be fascinating to see all journeys undertaken by car which were classed as commutes for a particular locale presented on a map, labelled with their lengths, with a rollup/overlay showing approximate journey density/frequency by road. By progressively removing shorter journeys (up to five miles, or whatever) and re-assigning them to bus, foot or cycle (and/or possibly allocating particular journeys to public transport based on closeness of fit of desired journeys against possible public transport routes) the reduction in motor traffic flow/density along various routes could be visualised. It'd probably be possible to demonstrate that overall mean journey time (both rolling-time and total door-door time) for the total journey set was reduced, due to movement of people to forms of transport with reduced road-footprint-per-occupant (and, in the case of the cycle, greater flexibility in terms of being able to travel at different speeds without needing additional carriageways) and resultant decreased congestion, noise, etc.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. Dave
    Member

    @Dave Crampton - the train soon loses its advantage when you aren't living / working close to the stations. It used to take me about an hour to ride out to work in Fife. If I did bus/train instead, I had to leave the flat about 7:30 for the 8:10 train, and didn't get in to work until quarter to nine. If the office had been any further from the station, it would have compared even worse!

    (It also cost well over a hundred pounds a month, which paid off a rather nice bike in short order).

    Of course, I still often got the train because I wanted to carry things, was tired, the bridge was closed due to 5mph side-winds, and so on. But, for my money, I think a 15 mile each-way commute is perfectly doable for a regular cyclists and a 10 mile each-way within the realms of "Joe Ordinary" (from time to time - if they'd ever try it).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. DaveC
    Member

    @Wingpig, 'The School Run' is the main cause of high density traffic. I drove for 5 years when I lived in East Anglia. On School holidays the roads were quiet.

    In reply to Dave, yes I'm guilty of not cycling. I've come in a couple of times during the day over the christmas period to look at routes. One quiet route via Queen Elizebeth Yards would be pitch black and I'm looking at good front lights. The other routes like Queensferry road looked busy enough during the day out of 'the rush hour' and I don't fancy my chances in the dark with high volumes of traffic yet. I do like the more quiet routes like the disused rail lines which come in from Silverknowles, I just need to find a route I'm happy with, which is quiet enough.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. Dave
    Member

    Dave - there's no way to do it without a good front light, I'm afraid. However, that aside it's very simple indeed to use the old railway.

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/7576258 shows my old commute between Carnegie Campus and town. You can get right to the end of the Roseburn path (Leith or Murrayfield) without having to ride on any busy roads to speak of.

    I'm not one to preach, but the ride from Fife is really very agreeable, and especially for the odd one-off, quite do-able. It's the only thing I miss about my old job!

    If we could find a mutually agreeable time I'd be willing to buddy you if it made any difference. I even have a second (decent) front light you could borrow for the ride, if I can dig out a spare battery.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Yeah the ride to Fife on the NCN is one of my favorite training runs, its practically the first thing I did on my bike! The feeling you get when the bridge comes into view is great, be careful of potholes as you come into the little village behind crammond brig.

    The distance gets shorter the more you do it, in the highlands I had a regular 16 mile each way commute (that went up 2 very large hills) which was quite manageable if you can get a shower at either end. It was also a fantastic antidote to working in a call center :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. Dave
    Member

    I've mentioned it before but I lost over 35lbs commuting by bike, and I was eating a lot of extra food too (steak bridies for the win!).

    Posted 13 years ago #

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