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BBC Breakfast

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  1. Min
    Member

    Don't know if anyone saw this this morning (Monday 10th) at about 7.45 but they had a "debate" between a cyclist and a motorist (described as a Motoring Journalist I think) about changing the law to give cyclists more some protection.

    Obviously it was the usual thing where the motorist kept banging on about how cyclists go through red lights etc and therefore do not deserve any protection in law. He only punctuated this monologue with mentions of tax and licence plates. He neatly encapsulated the attitude to cycling in this country which requires that until all cyclists are perfect then none deserve any protection from the law.

    The cyclist did her best, and unusually for the cycle hating BBC, they seem to have picked someone pretty eloquent on the cycling side and for the motoring side someone who, well the kindest way I can describe him is that he perfectly illustrated why cycling rates really need to increase drastically in the UK.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Ah, switched that on about 5-10 minutes late. They'd moved on to the 'electric car being driven between London and Edinburgh' by that point.

    You're right though, it's an odd notion that no-one deserves protection until ALL all whiter than white. Just imagine if that applied to motorists...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. recombodna
    Member

    ... yeah! I've NEVER heard of a motorist breaking the law. Thank god they're all perfect! Here's to 'em.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Min
    Member

    It's just the minority hating thing again isn't it? Cyclists eat swans and take all our jobs and wimmin and should all be sent back to where they came from.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I was having a whinge about driving habits (i.e. the unneccessary journeys that people convince themselves they can't make without a car) on the electric cars thread and then remembered an advert I heard on Classic FM last night when I was making bubble and squeak soup (highly recommended - the soup that is, not the advert).

    It was for some sort of Volvo XC-something-or-another and they point of the advert was that it was "not just a sports utility vehicle, it was also a "school run utility vehicle" and a "supermarket utility vehicle" and a "snow utility veichle" because it has 4 wheel drive and sits slightly higher off the ground than your common or garden Swedish tank.

    It's another example of the thread somewhere we had about (I think) Jeep adverts and how if you bought a Jeep then you were invincible to the snow and it made up for your complete and utter lack of winter driving training.

    *fume*

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. wingpig
    Member

    Might iPlayer that. Until the motor vehicle licensing testing system is amended to be able to judge the potential licensee's moral compentency in respect of their desire to be granted the legal right to be in command of a deadly vehicle it shouldn't be waved around as an excuse for the exhibition of bias in their favour in the application of the laws concerning them.

    I've often wondered if the reason why some drivers obviously deliberatly buzz or threaten cyclists who are cycling safely, predictably and legally is to try and get them to snap and ride onto the pavement to escape or do something else illegal so that the "they're all red-light-jumping scumbags" tenet is reinforced rather than weakened and making it the driver's obligation to seek to criminalise cycling and attempt to assassinate its exponents.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Min
    Member

    That is a good point, I have often wondered what motivates the kind of driver that becomes dangerously enraged by the sight of a cyclist riding safely and legally.

    They are just like bullies can provoke you until they snap knowing full well they can run crying to the teacher as the teacher will automatically take their side. And such it is with the law in this country.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    From observation, I figure that one way to get dozy drivers off the mark quicker when the lights change is to put a law-abiding cyclist infront of them in the ASL box. Suddenly they are awake, attentive, watching the lights, have their foot hovering on the clutch and accellerator and are off the line on the split second that the red light switches to amber.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. cb
    Member

    "remembered an advert I heard on Classic FM last night"

    Steering this thread a little more off topic with another advertisment story...

    Saw a billboard on (I think) Russell Road for some ISP with wording along the lines of: "4x4 Broadband, push bike prices".

    What's that supposed to mean? Surely "push bike broadband" would be better. I.e. conistent, dependable, predictable and, crucially, fastest during congested periods.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. Min
    Member

    "I figure that one way to get dozy drivers off the mark quicker when the lights change is to put a law-abiding cyclist infront of them in the ASL box."

    Yep, I wouldn't have to put up with all that irritating engine revving and the subsequent skimming past in first gear 0.5mph faster that I am travelling, with the engine howling in protest if I just rode through the red light..

    (Is that the longest sentence I have ever written? Could be)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. ruggtomcat
    Member

    If i get buzzed or cut up then the next inevitable red light i park myself infront of the car concerned and then take off really slowly and in the middle of the lane (shouldn't be overtaking at junctions anyway.) sometimes i do a few bunny hops while waiting and whistle a cheery tune. Is this wrong?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Mellow Velo
    Member

    I had a less than sympathetic motorist vent his horn as he overtook me on the uphill to Fairmilehead. As he joined the back of the car queue 10 metres later I tapped enquiringly on his window as to what was "with all the hoot'n and toot'n?" Apparently I was holding up the traffic and shouldn't be riding a bike in the snow anyway. I duly pulled away at the lights and it was another mile before he caught up again advising that I would be better off taking a bus. Nice chap.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. Claggy Cog
    Member

    I had a driver sitting behind me at lights turning right up Comiston road, who overtook me, naturally I was going uphill and seemed so incensed that I was there shot past me and promptly ran a red light without pausing. He was, in fact is such a hurry to get past me, I don't think he saw the red light at all, and it was just as well nothing was crossing the other way. Another example today was me turning right into a street only to have the car that was behind me cut the corner so completely as to be on the wrong side of the road when I turned, I was actually going to turn another immediate right but they were in my way. Unbelievable, it was so slippery too with all the ice, compressed snow and slush. What was that all about?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. Claggy Cog
    Member

    @cb Surely "push bike broadband" would be better. I.e. conistent, dependable, predictable and, crucially, fastest during congested periods.

    Not to the motorist mentality! You know it... slow, gets you down, runs red lights, and breaks the law. Does not pay road tax and should just not be allowed.

    I was really irritated a number of years ago when someone I knew in advertising told me that if you don't understand an advert, it is not aimed or meant for you. Really... so it is not a case of those working in the advertising world live in some sort of parallel universe then? I do wonder what planet some of them are from and think they have indulged somewhat too much in mind altering substances!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Cars trying to under-take you round a corner is one of my pet hates. Always seems to happen on my final turn for home on Argyle Place. It's a wide junction with traffic waiting to turn coming down the way held quite far back by the lights. You normally have to stop and wait on Melville Drive to make the right turn and the cars waiting behind you can see the gap to turn when you do - but because they're behind and taking a more inside line, they try and out-accelerate you from behind around the corner. It's bl**dy dangerous, particularly when they find you've got off the mark a lot quicker than they thought you would (I think they presume if you've crawled up to the lights waiting for them to change that that is your cruising speed) and find themselves facing the 41 bus coming down the way.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. splitshift
    Member

    now now,we all know that all drivers, especially car drivers make mistakes, we dont need to hate em, after all we are perfect arnt we ?
    I have seen car and van and bus and lorry and street sweeper and road roller drivers do the most stupid,illegal things. I have also seen mtb riders,brompton,electric bike, tricycle,recumbant riders do the most stupid and illegal things !
    what we need is to burn of thataggresion and try not to get killed !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Very true splitshift.

    As you say, it's all about trying not to get killed. However we don't have crumple zones, side impact protection systems, locking seatbelts, airbags, ABS brakes and a ton-plus of steel and safety glass surrounding us. It's about 10-15kg of metal and rubber and the rest is flesh, bone and ~70% water.

    I'd say that most cyclists recognise they are in this very vulnerable position compared to traffic and are lighter and slower and softer and spongier and squishier.

    People respond to this in their own way, but a lot of us will choose to ride in an "aggresive" / "assertive" / "dominant" / "confident"* manner as we feel this is a safer way to ride (and studies often back this up) and I think this is what non-cycling drivists often pick up on as "bad" / "anti-social" / "inconsiderate" cycling.

    I can't always be looking over my shoulder to see what the clown behind me is up to, so I ride in such a way as to try put myself in control of the situation - if they want past, they can put themselves at risk and give me room and go around like they would pass any other four-wheeled road vehicle. I don't deliberately "get in their way", I'm putting myself in the safest position in the road. I also know a lot of drivers dislike cyclists filtering through traffic - however I feel a lot safer when I'm moving, rather than stopped - as I can go left or right or speed up or slow down to take avoiding action. If I'm stopped in traffic, the only place for me to really go is over or under.

    A cyclists' stupidity might end up in some bumps and bruises and scrapes to rider and bike, but the car / bus / van driver / street sweeper's stupidity can and does all too often end fatally. I think this is the key point - too many drivers just do not realise what the consequence of these actions will be. They just do not realise they are mindlessly driving around a motorised ton of steel that only takes a press of the wrong pedal or a turn of the wrong wheel to turn it into a weapon.

    I now feel cleansed.

    * = delete as applicable

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. Min
    Member

    "As you say, it's all about trying not to get killed."

    Indeed. And while the onus is entirely on cyclists to "not get killed" the deaths and injuries will continue.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. Claggy Cog
    Member

    @kaputnik...
    That was a first for me, ever. Someone undertaking me on a right turn. In all the years I have been cycling it has actually never happened before, not even in London. What was most concerning was the state of the road due to the slush and ice and being forced to manoeuver into a place where I did not want to go.

    I did have a girl tailgating me in her mini when the road was particularly icy, and then berating, shouting and swearing at me when I pulled over... one because I was home, and two to get out of her way, I was feeling particularly harassed and felt in danger of being run over by her if I slid on the road which had quite a camber, and was akin to an ice skating rink. She asked me, not very politely, with a lot of expletives, if I did not know it was icy... well yes, I am not blind, not oblivious to my surroundings, and that might explain why I was going along s.l.o.w.l.y.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. Smudge
    Member

    Fars fair, Splitshift has a good point, if I get hacked off by the RLJ's, the no/feeble lights and dark clothes crowd etc etc, why shouldn't any other road user? We, as a collective group ("cyclists") are not without sin...
    As has been said before, 90% of drivers are not (deliberately) dangerous/aggressive/evil, but the 10% who are continue to get away with it and ought to have their licenses revoked permanently.

    However in ranting about the misdemeanours of car drivers we run the risk of sounding distressingly like the "cyclists just run red lights/ride on the pavement/ride erratically etc etc" crowd.

    I'm very aware that we are at much greater risk physically, but descending to their level doesn't change that.

    No offence intended by the above comments and not directed at any one individual!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Heh, none taken :) That's why forums are good places - you can come home after taking some abuse on the road, get it out your system and then face tomorrow as another day with a wave from your glove, rather than a 2-fingered traffic signal...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. Claggy Cog
    Member

    There are some days when I just get irritated, and annoyed full stop. There are days when people seem to do the most stupid things for no apparent reason; and may come in runs, like several things that are non-sensical, if not downright dangerous but you live. There are days when for no explicable reason the traffic seems inordinately heavy and would appear that all of the looneys are in the same place as you. Have you never sat on the bus and the one smelliest person lacking in any kind of personal hygiene, grooming, or is simply barking sits next to you and tries to engage you in some really inane conversation? There are just days like that and then there are absolutely great days!! Hurrah.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. Dave
    Member

    Today I was on my way down Leith Walk when I noticed the white van in front had lost the cap on his pipe thingy, and all the contents were in danger of spilling out behind him.

    I thought I should do the honourable thing so when we hit the next queue I went to some effort to communicate this to him. He thanked me, the lights turned and he drove off at 30mph regardless...

    He probably knew that if they did spill out the back and cause a fatal incident, even though he'd been warned beforehand the fine was unlikely to exceed a couple of hundred quid and it was just less hassle to risk it. Probably if he's also a cyclist, I'd expect him to be the 'wrong way on the pavement without lights' type...

    Because the thing that so many people seem to miss is that the guy riding his bike is (at a higher rate than the general population) also licenced to drive, and often walks. The idea that you can predict lawfulness by transport mode is meaningless when you realise transport mode is permeable on a journey-by-journey basis.

    I'd bet money that if you were to assess individuals en masse, you'd find they react consistently to a given risk/reward opportunity whether they're cycling, driving, whatever.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. splitshift
    Member

    well didnt mean to upset anyone,ive been run of the road by a van driver,into a field ! been knocked of twice,I get angry, furious and stupid ! just try our best !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. kaputnik
    Moderator

    well didnt mean to upset anyone

    I'm sure you haven't. Speaking for myself, I get upset on the road and let it out here sometimes. Better that way than letting it out on the road and doing myself a mischief. Pay no attention to me :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. splitshift
    Member

    actually, the van that ran me off the road, into a field......while i got up and tried to remonstrate with the driver, he and his two passengers laughed at me and flipped various digits, and sped off ! But, unkown to them I got the phone number from the side of thier van ! I have an old mobilephone with a very unregistered sim card or two ! They regularly now go to quote jobs that dont exist !!!! vengance is mine, whenever I feel the need !
    Its not big or clever but makes me laugh !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. ruggtomcat
    Member

    at least you didn't post said number to the internet...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. splitshift
    Member

    no, fraid that might be illegal, and potentially traceable ! I am brave but not stupid, have no desire to have van loads of Gypsies ( my own interpretation of the company )arriving at my house looking for blood ! ( actually dont want them turning up at my house,full stop ! )
    Joking ! have worked with many travellers and they are an honourable group of people ,mostly !
    holes digging, stop !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. LaidBack
    Member

    kptnk - if they want past, they can put themselves at risk and give me room and go around like they would pass any other four-wheeled road vehicle.

    That's what I did last night but said car went briefly head to head crossing Princes St and then just cut me up as they entered the Mound.

    Having said that it works most of the time and the other cars behind gave me space.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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