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Do we need a coronavirus thread?

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  1. ejstubbs
    Member

    No comments about the advice that Central Belters should not travel outside their own health board area "if they do not need to"? This was in Nicola's speech, and appeared in some news reports in the following 24 hours eg this one but doesn't seem to have been widely picked up - and perhaps more significantly doesn't appear in the the update on the Scottish Government's own web site: https://www.gov.scot/news/new-moves-to-stop-covid-19-spread/ (although the advice to avoid public transport does).

    It has been fuelling some debate on outdoor activity forums such as UK Climbing and Walkhighlands but I've not seen much if any mention of it elsewhere.

    On the face of it, it would seem to put the kybosh on quite a few Edinburgher's favourite routes e.g. the Granites would seem to be out. (Although it does actually seem to be unreasonably difficult to find out exactly where the borders between different health boards lie, I'm pretty sure that Innerlieithen is in Borders).

    Full disclosure: unaware at the time of the travel advice (I only saw the UKC thread after we got back) me and the missus went for a walk around Loch Leven near Kinross yesterday. From leaving the car park and returning we were outdoors all the time, and as always we did our best to follow social distancing guidelines on the Heritage Trail. That said, if we had known about the advice then we would have considered going somewhere closer to home instead.

    Bottom line: what actual weight does "advice" have when the government doesn't even bother to post it on its own web site, and for which it appears to be unreasonably difficult to ensure one's compliance? One might almost get the feeling that they are trying to quietly forget about it...

    Posted 4 years ago #

  2. Frenchy
    Member

    Health boards are made of whole council areas joined together. NHS Lothian covers the council areas of Edinburgh, East Lothian, Midlothian and West Lothian. So turn round at the top of the first granite!

    Posted 4 years ago #

  3. steveo
    Member

    No apple pie for the foreseeable future then.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  4. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Maybe the First Minister has forgotten it the way she forgot the meeting she called for and arranged with Geoff Aberdeen

    Posted 4 years ago #

  5. Baldcyclist
    Member

    New restrictions suit me, haven't been in a pub since 2014, and the bonus is I can't see my in-laws for 3 weekends.

    We were going to go to Livi skatepark at the weekend though, shame we can't still do that; will have to go to Ballingry sakatepark instead.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  6. bill
    Member

    Face coverings will be compulsory in indoor communal settings such as staff canteens and corridors in workplaces.

    I read that on BBC news the other day but there I cannot any mention of this new rule on the government website. Our health and safety person tried to introduce face coverings in the factory space a while back but one of the chief people strongly opposed it because they don't like wearing a face mask.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    “Full disclosure: unaware at the time of the travel advice”

    Presume only comes into ‘force’ at 6pm today(?)

    She also said ‘don’t change your half term holiday plans’.

    The whole thing is a mess in many ways.

    Latest ‘problem’ is that there is ‘no such thing as a licensed cafe’ (as distinct from a licensed restaurant).

    The real problem is that there is still no practical consensus on ‘what is needed to be done’, and ‘what the public are likely to accept’.

    That’s without considering ‘balancing’ public health and the economy.

    It’s still not clear (to me at least) how much transmission is mostly person to person - as opposed to picking up from surfaces.

    In addition, how factual/significant the importance of being nearby ‘for 15 minutes or more‘ is.

    I didn’t know this had ever been relaxed (or is it just the reality of complacency?) -

    “
    Additionally, from this weekend, shops across Scotland are asked to return to two metres physical distancing and reintroduce the mitigations they put in place earlier in the pandemic, including one-way systems.

    “

    Previously social distancing advice included “where possible” - again ‘balancing’ ‘good advice’ with ‘reality’

    It is more than unfortunate that measures (not just in Scotland/UK) haven’t made the virus ‘disappear’. From the start the fear that winter could be worse was quite prominent.

    It may or not turn out to be true, but we certainly don’t seem to be ready.

    As to cycling the Granites, it’s surely not about crossing artificial lines and whether that is ‘legal’ or ‘approved’.

    Previously the main reason (for not going on long cycle rides) was ‘you might fall off and take up emergency service/hospital capacity’. Now, the non Covid parts are (apparently) ‘quiet’, but the Covid parts (in some places) are close to capacity again.

    So, decisions based on personal responsibility and lack of adequate info(?)

    For cycling, I think it’s clear that it’s good for physical and mental health. As ever, the dangers include motor traffic (and unwise speed on gravelly descents). Should cafes/takeaways be avoided? Will they survive the lack of custom?

    Complicated.

    So, personal lockdown and rely on others to keep distribution systems going.

    Or

    ‘Business as usual’ - social distancing and masks - only a recent requirement with, perhaps, only slight benefits.

    Or

    ‘Rules are for other people/I’m immune’.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  8. ejstubbs
    Member

    @Murun Buchstansangar: #2 area is Marchmont and East Sciennes, and #3 is Meadows and Southside

    And #5 is Abbeyhill.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Murun

    You are crossing the streams there. And at the risk of going to jail the dude's name is 'Aberdein'.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  10. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Is Abbeyhill now a big student area? I’m afraid I’m still stuck with the mental geography of my far-off student days, though I know Fountainbridge now has a lot of students

    Posted 4 years ago #

  11. ejstubbs
    Member

    @chdot: Presume only comes into ‘force’ at 6pm today(?)

    I'm not sure that you can have "advice" of this kind that only becomes applicable* from a given date and time**. Regulation yes, but advice?

    it’s surely not about crossing artificial lines

    "However, in general, we are advising people living in Greater Glasgow & Clyde, Lanarkshire, Ayrshire & Arran, Lothian and Forth Valley not to travel outside the health board area they live in, if you don’t need to - and likewise people in other parts of Scotland should not travel to these areas if they don’t need to."

    From https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-update-first-ministers-speech-7-october-2020/

    Feel free to interpret it in any other way you regard as justified, but it seems fairly clear as it stands.

    Also from that transcript:

    "More detail of all that I have just set out will be available on the Scottish Government website."

    Which, in the case of the above advice, isn't true - there's nowt there about it.

    * I'm not sure that "advice" can actually "come in to force" - being advice rather than regulation, it doesn't have any "force" in the sense of defined sanctions that can be imposed for non-compliance.

    ** Obviously some kinds of advice can be specific to a time or conditions e.g. I would advise not setting out for a walk across the causeway to Cramond Island when the tide is already on its way in, especially during full moon and new moon springs. But with Covid outbreaks we're talking about an existing and ongoing situation.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Cuba to open for tourism starting next week

    In Cuba meanwhile: Prime Minister Manuel Marrero said late on Thursday that most of the Caribbean island nation would open to international tourism starting next week as it moved towards a “new normality” after containing its coronavirus outbreak.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/oct/09/coronavirus-live-news-record-global-case-rise-washington-health-officials-ask-rose-garden-guests-to-get-tested?page=with:block-5f7fd4ea8f08bbf7a1fffbc3#block-5f7fd4ea8f08bbf7a1fffbc3

    Posted 4 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    “

    I'm not sure that you can have "advice" of this kind that only becomes applicable* from a given date and time**. Regulation yes, but advice?

    “

    True (probably)

    Posted 4 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    “
    if you don’t need to - and likewise people in other parts of Scotland should not travel to these areas if they don’t need to."

    “

    So it IS about crossing artificial boundaries.

    Covid can’t see them.

    Maybe ambulances aren’t allowed to cross them??

    Posted 4 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    “

    don’t need to

    “

    Who decides need?

    Just bought a bike in Edinburgh.

    Does former owner need to keep it for 2 weeks??

    Posted 4 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/edinburgh-revellers-enjoy-drinks-last-night-pubs-and-restaurants-close-2998008

    Posted 4 years ago #

  17. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    @iwrats mibbes. And I know the guy’s name well enough, autocorrect doesn’t, however.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  18. steveo
    Member

    I'm not sure that you can have "advice" of this kind that only becomes applicable* from a given date and time**. Regulation yes, but advice?

    I think thats the one thing thats really bothered me through out this. With the exception of the lockdown everything has had a lead time such that it seems to render the intervention almost pointless.

    "masks are vitally important to keeping you and others safe, thats why in two weeks were going to make it mandatory for everyone to wear one in the shops. Meanwhile keep on sneezing"

    Posted 4 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot, "It’s still not clear (to me at least) how much transmission is mostly person to person - as opposed to picking up from surfaces."

    You may wish to take a look at this, seems contact transmission may be more of a risk than many suspect:

    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200317-covid-19-how-long-does-the-coronavirus-last-on-surfaces

    @ejstubbs, "And #5 is Abbeyhill."

    What's not at all clear from the EEN "article" is that local neighbourhoods in cities, as specced by Scot Gov, are really quite small. So "Abbeyhill" in this context is the part of Abbeyhill south of London Road/the A1, which just happens to house the large Brae House student accommodation block. There is another "Abbeyhill" north of London Road/the A1, which is styled by Scot Gov "Abbeyhill North and Meadowbank" which includes the Abbeyhill Colonies, and in this local neighbourhood the cases have been relatively low over the past seven days (which is the stat the EEN clickbait is based upon).

    Posted 4 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    “You may wish to take a look at this, seems contact infection may be more of a risk than many suspect:“

    Thanks, but that’s part of the problem, that piece is from March when handwashing was big and mask wearing wasn’t. No doubt that’s partly because PPE availability was problematic.

    There’s been a massive increase in mask wearing, but not a significant increase in sanitising public spaces.

    There are a lot more hand sanitisers than in March, but I can’t remember much encouragement to use them.

    “

    New campaign to prevent spread of coronavirus indoors this winter

    The ‘Hands. Face. Space’ public information campaign urges the public to continue to wash their hands, cover their face and make space to control infection rates and avoid a second peak.

    Published 9 September 2020

    “

    Ok it’s simpler to maintain the wash your hands message, but there are more hand sanitisers on the High Street than washbasins.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  21. Baldcyclist
    Member

    'Hands, Face, Space' is nice and easy to remember, but it's not for us. In Scotland we have FACTS which no one can remember what it means.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  22. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot, "that piece is from March "

    I don't see why that invalidates the research findings cited. If anyone has more recent links to research on coronavirus longevity on various surfaces, please feel free to share here.

    "There’s been a massive increase in mask wearing"

    Which helps to reduce airborne transmission, especially indoors.

    Contact transmission has presumably not disappeared, it's just that government has realised that airborne transmission is more of a risk than previously thought.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  23. LaidBack
    Member

    @Baldycyclist 'Hands, Face, Space' is nice and easy to remember, but it's not for us.

    New kids on the block 'UK Government Scotland' are now running Hands, Face, Space ads as full pages in The National.
    Agreed it is a decent line but it isn't the one being used here. Nothing to do with the fact few people like BJ here? Lots of 'unrivalled might of the Union' talk and building a new Jerusalem at the Tory conference.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    “Contact transmission has presumably not disappeared, it's just that government has realised that airborne transmission is more of a risk than previously thought.“

    Well yes, that’s probably my point - SEEMS likely that touching surfaces (and touching face/mask without washing/sanitising) is less of an issue than first believed/assumed.

    “If anyone has more recent links to research on coronavirus longevity on various surfaces, please feel free to share here.”

    Yes, you’d think they’d be some more recent research(?)

    Posted 4 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/seven-confirmed-dead-after-coronavirus-outbreak-west-lothian-care-home-2999534

    Posted 4 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Another local health official was more blunt. “Go back to the drawing board. Design it with local expertise. Have some nationally led elements. Bring in Ministry of Defence logisticians for mobile testing. Plan to launch the brand-new system by Christmas, and then sack every other bloody company involved.”

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/10/northern-cities-seek-overhaul-of-national-tracing-shambles

    Posted 4 years ago #

  27. Baldcyclist
    Member

    SAGE scientist today saying it's too late for contact tracing, virus is too ramapnt, we've missed the boat...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-coronavirus-independent-sage-restrictions-lockdown-b912506.html

    Posted 4 years ago #

  28. SRD
    Moderator

    Presumably that is more true in some areas than others? so we follow Italy and restrict travel in and out in those areas, while continuing to track and trace everywhere else?

    Posted 4 years ago #

  29. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Perhaps easier to achieve here where we have a local system.
    The centralised 'private' system down south is getting much stick, perhaps until it is changed to a more local system then it's more difficult to take that local approach?

    Posted 4 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    “

    local leaders believe that they can do better

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/11/everyone-is-fighting-how-downing-street-lost-its-grip-on-a-divided-nation

    Posted 4 years ago #

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