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Do we need a coronavirus thread?

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  1. unhurt
    Member

    (and they generally don’t).

    Not been my observation round here - quite a few people having work done, masks much in evidence.

    Media overemphasis on minority intentionally not complying is actually a contributor to non-compliance - I believe the stats show that actually the majority of people do their best to comply.

    I'm not especially enthused by the narrative - very useful to those in power - that the real problem here is the behaviour of large parts of the populace. Especially when it comes across as a poorly-disguised bit of kicking specific groups (I'm thinking about class as well as race).

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. LaidBack
    Member

    there’s no suggestion they should wear PPE (and they generally don’t).

    We had an EST loan to fit secondary glazing. Perth based company (Glaze & Save) with two workers intially both face masked when in our presence. Breaks taken outside, minimal interaction. Quite hard to isolate with people in house but we went out to shop.
    Good product btw - reduced our need to heat with window heat loss massively reduced. Long process with interest free loan - gov initiative with campaign in old town.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. neddie
    Member

    Bacterial particles were shot out of an aerosol generator and the proportion that made it through the mask fabric were measured. Measuring three micrometers in diameter the bacteria used were about 30 times larger than coronavirus particles, but the results were likely to be relevant to Covid-19 nevertheless, independent researchers said

    Bacteria (which they tested against) are 30 times larger than viruses!

    That's a bit like expecting a set of bollards to filter out squirrels!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. Frenchy
    Member

    If squirrels, like viruses,tended to use a mode of transport which was a couple of orders of magnitude larger than themselves, a set of bollards would be an excellent filter.

    Most humans are less than 1m wide, but stick a row of bollards on the M8 and not many humans would get along it. Likewise, viruses appear to mostly travel in roughly micron sized water droplets, so a micron-spaced set of bollards is a rather good filter.

    There are also electrostatic effects at these lengthscales which mean that nanometre sized objects are often less likely to pass through a filter than micron sized objects.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

  7. wingpig
    Member

    "That's a bit like expecting a set of bollards to filter out squirrels!"

    Or a thin sheet of gold foil to filter out electrons?

    Surprised no-one has yet started flogging magic electrical masks. Perhaps they have, but have not yet penetrated my thick armour of recent-Google-search-related targeted advertising for things I have already bought but only need once.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    Prof Devi Sridhar, the chair of global public health at Edinburgh University, said there were flaws in the UK government’s approach to travel over the summer. “Numbers were really low and that was our chance to keep them low,” she said. “The virus moves when people move.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/coronavirus-strain-from-spain-accounts-for-most-uk-cases-study

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Boris Johnson 'plans national Covid lockdown for England until December'

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-plans-national-22934490

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. ejstubbs
    Member

    @unhurt: "No non-essential travel into or out of the level 3 area... Exemptions for essential travel for work, education, shopping health etc; outdoor exercise..."

    Apparently Nicola has since 'clarified' that the reference to outdoor exercise as an exception means only if you can't do said outdoor exercise within your own local authority's area*. But of course you'd only know that if you were watching, or had seen reports of, the press conference or debate in which that statement was made. I haven't managed to track it down online yet, and the government's own web page hadn't been updated last time I looked. It would not be unreasonable IMO to take the position that if it's not set down in writing then it's left to the judgement of the individual citizen (which means, inevitably, that some will end up doing whatever they feel like regardless).

    I stand by my opinion that the communications are disappointingly poor.

    I also stand by my opinion of the contact sports advice in particular. It's ungrammatical (a critical verb is missing) and poorly expressed. Yes, it's possible to infer what it means, but why should that be necessary when it would have been much clearer and simpler to say "contact sports not permitted except for under-18s and professional sportspeople"? As it's been published it looks like a hastily-taken meeting note that's been transcribed directly on to the web page without even being reviewed or proof read. It's just shoddy.

    * The nuances of this could also be open to debate. For example, if one's chosen form of outdoor exercise would be to ride Spooky Wood then you could only do that by going to Glentress. I suspect that it means something like if you want to go kite surfing and your LA area is wholly inland then it's OK to travel to the nearest suitable beach to do it. But it's far from clear from what's [apparently] been said so far that such an interpretation would actually be correct.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  11. ejstubbs
    Member

    @unhurt (again): You were allowed to get an MOT during full lockdown...that seems self-evidently a necessary journey

    MoTs are a bit different because they are time-bound: you have to get them done by a certain data in order to be able to use your vehicle legally on the road. That's why they granted a six-month extension to MoTs which fell due during the original lockdown period. But my car (which has recently been MoT'ed - but that's another story) isn't going to explode or suddenly veer off the road because its oil change is a bit overdue. And I could take it to another garage which is within the CEC boundary to get the service done - although that would delay it further since garages - like many other businesses - seem to be working through massive backlogs at the moment.

    garages are open and working

    So is Ikea, but that doesn't mean that a trip to Straiton to buy a new table lamp is necessarily justified.

    if you both want concise clarity AND detail on every possible personal situation this will be a bit of a difficult thing to fulfill, professional communicator or no.

    I didn't ask for detail: you added that. Concision and clarity should be sufficient. Too much of what's being communicated at the moment seems to be poorly thought out, inadequately reviewed - and sometimes made up on the fly. In my old line of work that would have been unacceptable, and I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to hold well-remunerated public officials to similar standards.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  12. Baldcyclist
    Member

    PM announcement at 4. How long before NS follows suit?

    Or might he lockdown whole UK?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    “How long before NS follows suit?“

    That’s the question.

    Some suggestion that the slowdown/pause in cases in Scotland is due to school half term more than new/current tiering.

    So simple answer is if/when curves rise (‘official’ talk is they won’t).

    UK border lockdown might be a smarter choice at this point than another lock-in.

    MIGHT even encourage a greater adherence to current rules (inc quarantine).

    Posted 4 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    To those briefing selective media on a potential national lockdown please understand the impact this has. It creates a media frenzy, causes confusion and ahead of any official announcement encourages some to make the most of their pre lockdown time. This is not a good mix!

    https://twitter.com/PFEW_Chair/status/1322444531413954560

    Posted 4 years ago #
  15. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Saw three guys in fancy dress get into a BMW and drive off. Party time.....

    Posted 4 years ago #
  16. LaidBack
    Member

    People are wondering why England is announcing policy via Robert Peston?
    Data suggests curve is flattening here.
    https://flic.kr/p/2k26SUq

    All bets are off as to whether we are controlling the spread enough anywhere on these islands (or anywhere). Need to check on state of Denmark.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I suspect we'll end up in lockdown too. Our clinical director was calling for it at the same time as SAGE and didn't get it.
    I don't think the virus cares how well we are being communicated to in comparison to our friends down south, we're simply a few weeks behind and therefore would be better doing it now. We'll wait though the same as the English until it is forced on us.

    Agreed that the forced Comms today was a cluster rule1.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Yes, we will be locked down soon. This is a grotesque failure of the entire UK of GB&NI from Her Britannic Majesty right down to us humble subjects. Sixth richest country in the world, stack of world-class universities and six months' clear notice of the exact problem.

    Utter failure.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    One of the things about Covid is we watched Hong Kong where they know about this stuff and did not act, thiem we watched, France, Italy, german6 etc

    Not able to generalize from single salient exemplar

    Posted 4 years ago #
  20. Morningsider
    Member

    Town heaving yesterday - queues out the door of nearly every "cafe", a definition which appears to include McDonalds, KFC and the like. Small groups happily drinking "take-away" pints right outside Brewdog on Lothian Road. Newington awash with students clearly on their way to Halloween parties - the clanking bags and fancy dress being a bit of a giveaway.

    I know people have to get out, but some folk and businesses are clearly taking the mick.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  21. LaidBack
    Member

    Will the Scottish licensed trade now demand to be put into level 4? :-)
    Last week it was areas demanding to drop from (say) level 3 to 2. In fact there was talk of Edinburgh going that way although the Halloween shenanigans should increase transmission as you noted @morningsider

    Low rates away from central belt - thought the idea was to have appropriate measures for each area? Highlands & Islands may not need same as high density* parts of Scotland?

    *Population 'denseness' varies LOL !

    Posted 4 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

  23. SRD
    Moderator

    My sense is that most of those moaning that Boris is unfit are doing so because he is actually take covid seriously? They seem to want him to stride around like Trump and insist that it will go away.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    Edinburgh levels were half of west Lothian the last time I looked at rates.

    Allegedly Balerno has no new cases on a par with bonnington which is a hamlet on the side entrance to Jupiter artland.

    Boris 7nder pressure from libertarian right to open everything up and kill the poor but that don’t mean he is doing anything right

    Posted 4 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    Is Covid-19 the virus that killed not just millions of people but also the supremacy of western economies, liberal values and convictions that democracy is the best form of government? As France and Belgium lead Europe back into national lockdowns and Britain is set to follow, no European country, whatever their record until now, is free from a surge in infections. The coronavirus experience in the United States will almost certainly cost Donald Trump the presidency. However, autocracies and communitarian societies in Asia are faring much better; China and a host of Asian countries are managing to contain the virus and grow their economies. Taiwan has not seen a locally transmitted case for more than six months.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/01/western-societies-have-failed-the-deadly-covid-test-they-must-learn-lessons-from-asia

    Posted 4 years ago #
  26. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I am reading Oswald Mosely's 1934 booklet The Greater Britain.

    http://www.freepdf.info/index.php?post/Mosley-Oswald-The-greater-Britain

    Posted 4 years ago #
  27. steveo
    Member

    I think anyone looking at Britain for the last few years would conclude democracy is a terrible form of government but its still better than the alternatives currently put forward by China et al.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  28. acsimpson
    Member

    Perhaps we need to look at the Swiss form of democracy. If enough people disagree then put it to a referendum.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  29. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I do not regard the UK of GB&NI as a democracy. There are votes, certainly, but democracy requires an informed, involved and empowered citizenship as well. And a free press. They do have an independent judiciary for the moment, but of course the present regime are taking steps against them and to put themselves beyond the reach of;

    (a) any provision of the Northern Ireland Protocol;
    (b) any other provision of the EU withdrawal agreement;
    (c) any other EU law or international law;
    (d) any provision of the European Communities Act 1972;
    (e) any provision of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018;
    (f) any retained EU law or relevant separation agreement law;
    (g) any other legislation, convention or rule of international or domestic law whatsoever, including any order, judgment or decision of the European Court or of any other court or tribunal,

    See Clause 47 of the regime's Ermächtigungsgeset:

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/58-01/135/5801135.pdf

    We are yet to see if the English and Welsh judiciary will accept this as within the power of parliament. The Scottish judiciary - nae chance. Northern Ireland who knows?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Also let us not forget that the regime is in the process of empowering the Food Standards Agency (amongst others) to authorise the murder of its political opponents.

    I am not making this up.

    Posted 4 years ago #

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