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Do we need a coronavirus thread?

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  1. unhurt
    Member

    Pretty sure any journalist who cared to look could find someone to share that sort of "opinion" in any part of Scotland they cared to seek it in, not only Glasgow and the West.

    @laidback

    as you say, for parts of the west central belt life expectancy is lower. 73/78 years in Glasgow City (male/female).
    Scot av is 77/81. UK av 79/83.
    Poor health + CV-19 and outcomes are bound to be worse.

    And that's overall - see this absolutely grim stat from less than a decade ago: "There are wide geographic (and socio-economic) health inequalities exemplified by a 15 year gap in male life expectancy at birth across Glasgow’s neighbourhoods and an equivalent 11 year gap in female life expectancy (in the period 2008-12)" (source: https://www.understandingglasgow.com/indicators/health/overview)

    I am not inclined to blame the feckless poor for their sufferings, Victorian (or Tory) style...

    Posted 4 years ago #

  2. crowriver
    Member

    "probably not moving the risk dial too much"

    Just a wee bit extra risk. Teachers will presumably be wearing face coverings in class. Also washing hands, using hand sanitiser, etc. That mother may be doing the same, but I somehow doubt it. Not with her "I'll break the law if I want to" attitude.

    "I am not inclined to blame the feckless poor for their sufferings, Victorian (or Tory) style..."

    I suspect the mother quoted on the news does not fit that category. Not sure the deprivation and associated poor health is directly linked to the Covid outbreaks either, though it will make things worse if someone is infected. Seem to recall reading a few things about older folk having house parties and so on, this was out West but probably elsewhere too.

    Some folk will just think "feck this" and do as they please, as they always have done. Which is fine up to the point where they put others at risk. Chrimbo and Hogmanay will be a right laugh, and no mistake.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  3. stiltskin
    Member

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54990131
    Interesting article, but I am actually quite surprised that the gaps between the working from home figures & public facing jobs explain the three times higher rate. I am quite surprised how close those figures are.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  4. ejstubbs
    Member

    @stiltskin: The article also discusses population density, especially density of living accommodation, as a factor, as well as the poverty/health/life expectancy issues just discussed on this thread. It doesn't seem to be saying that fewer opportunities to WFH is the only factor that might explain the difference between the two cities.

    That said, given that nowhere does it try to use the quantifiable differences it mentions to produce even a very rough numeric comparison of the risk factors in the two cities, it ends up being a bit hand-wavy. Which is not to say that people won't seize on articles of this sort to 'explain' why Glasgow is having a harder time than Edinburgh and/or to 'justify' choosing not to comply with the advice/guidance/regulations.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  5. crowriver
    Member

    Not convinced by the population density argument. In heavily tenements areas Edinburgh is far more densely populated. Indeed the area between Easter Road and Leith Walk has the highest population density in Scotland. Large areas of central Glasgow are empty and/or derelict, and there are plenty of parks and green spaces. That said, the main shopping streets always seem to get incredibly busy, maybe not just Glaswegians but folk coming in from the surrounding areas too.

    The article does hint at a complex combination of factors which taken together could produce this disparity. Maybe there are cultural factors at work too. Glaswegians often like to remind us how friendly they are, and how gallus also. Whereas they disparage Edinburghers as dour, reserved and distant with the taunt "You'll have had your tea?" Maybe that mythic reserve is working in Edinburgh's favour a bit during a pandemic? And the East coast more generally, perhaps.

    There's one factor that the BBC are presumably too polite to mention, but is revealed with a glance at the comments section of any Scottish news story on their web site (or that of the Glasgow Herald). The prevalence of a particularly defiant brand of Unionism in the West, with close ties to brethren in Norn Iron. This type of person steadfastly refuses to obey any directive issued by the Scottish government, which in their eyes is "illegitimate" due to being controlled by their sworn enemies the dreaded Nationalists. Perhaps some of this clan, bridling at restrictions imposed by the hated Sturgeon, will take more risks than the average punter? Again not the primary factor, but in combination with others perhaps raises the infection rate a smidgin?

    Posted 4 years ago #

  6. steveo
    Member

    Maybe that mythic reserve is working in Edinburgh's favour

    Social distancing, I've been training for this my whole life. Frankly 2m is a bit inside my personal space.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  7. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    I'm not convinced population density explains anything between Glasgow & Edinburgh. Nearly half of CEC's surface area lies beyond the bypass in the west (Pentlands, Ratho, Dalmeny etc) and is relatively lightly populated which drags down the average. Though Glasgow manages the trick of occupying a relatively large area but by giving away so much space to industry/dereliction/massive roads, still ends up with extremely dense housing.

    Neither Glasgow or Edinburgh are dense by English standards
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population_density

    Posted 4 years ago #

  8. ejstubbs
    Member

    Does anyone know where I can find an online version of the legislation which puts in to law the existing travel guidance/advice relating to the protection levels? I can't seem to track it down on legislation.gov.uk and my Google fu seems to be broken...

    I'm not looking to find 'loopholes', just understand what it actually says.

    And on (well, tenuously tangential to) the subject of travel restrictions, while taking our outdoor recreation within five miles of the City of Edinburgh boundary yesterday, we saw a guy wild swimming in the disused Bonaly Reservoir*. Now, the air temperature was 4°C when we left home, and that reservoir is about 500ft higher than casa nostra. There was ice on some of the drainage trickles running off the path round the northern flank of Carnethy Hill. And he wasn't even wearing a wetsuit - just swimming shorts! Brrrrrr...

    * I know that the reservoir is within the city council area, but we'd started from Castlelaw which isnae.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  9. MediumDave
    Member

    @ejstubbs

    Here you are:

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/health-protection-coronavirus-restrictions-and-requirements-local-levels-scotland-regulations-2020-amendment-regulations/

    It only appeared yesterday and it's in amendment format so it's horrible to read. Section 15 gives the list of "reasonable excuses". Doubtless this will appear on legislation.gov.uk at "some point"

    <rant>
    It is so frustrating (and counterproductive) when the governmetn seem incapable of releasing the law/guidance concurrently with the FM's speech. Makes it really hard to make decisions for certain activities when you are unsure what the law is going to be when those activities take place

    The SG seem to govern like an undergrad with an essay deadline looming...
    </rant>

    Posted 4 years ago #

  10. Morningsider
    Member

    @MediumDave- here they are on legislation.gov.uk

    Publishing Regulations four hours before they come into force is pretty poor - but the torrent of Brexit and Covid legislation is simply too much for parliamentary draftsmen to deal with. None of this stuff is being adequately scrutinised. It's going to take years to tidy up the resulting mess (excluding the wider mess actually caused by Brexit).

    Posted 4 years ago #

  11. ejstubbs
    Member

    Thanks both for that. Turns out that it's not really my fault I couldn't find it: I looked under Scottish Statutory Instruments for 2020 on legislation.gov.uk and the list only goes up to number 387 <rolleyes>

    @MediumDave: Concur 100% with your rant. Can also add how unhelpful it is when they amend the advice on their Coronavirus web pages without publicising it adequately. (Something I did actually agree with when perusing David Johnston's Twitter feed after IWRATS mentioned him the other day: https://twitter.com/DJohnsonMSP/status/1322156691841056769.)

    @Morningside: Perhaps they just can't be bothered to scrutinise the emergency Coronavirus regulations given that most of them won't be in force for all that long i.e. there won't be anything left to 'tidy up' when/if it all dies down. Not much comfort for anyone who inadvertently falls foul of them in the mean time, though.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  12. ejstubbs
    Member

    I note that in Section 13(2) of Schedule 4 it states: "a person who lives in a Level 3 area may leave the area in order to travel to another part of the same area." So no need for police checkpoints on the City Bypass/A1 between Sheriffhall and Newcraighall, then. Phew...

    Posted 4 years ago #

  13. acsimpson
    Member

    @ejstubbs, No questions about your walk from Castlelaw either then. You were travelling to Harlaw... Or was that the loophole you didn't need.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  14. gembo
    Member

    There is I think a reluctance to partay in Edinburgh that has helped keep numbers down. Yes.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  15. Greenroofer
    Member

    So am I allowed to ride my bike to Carnwath tomorrow or not? The ride will start and end in the same place in my own local authority area, is not organised and is outdoor exercise. By my interpretation of the law linked above it's quite clear that I can.

    What I'm no longer clear about is the moral question of whether I should. The First Minister is telling us to avoid non-essential travel. She tells us not to look for loopholes and obey the spirit, not the letter of these regulations.

    Several other things on that list seem quite optional too (weddings, baptisms, religious services and so on aren't utterly essential, in my view).

    Is the view then that outdoor exercise is by definition 'essential', regardless of how frivolous or unnecessary it might seem to others? And if so, where is the line drawn? Is a 300km ride around the Borders and East Lothian OK? (I'm not planning one, but I was rather wistfully last night looking at one I did in 2019...)

    What's your approach to this going to be?

    Posted 4 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    You're allowed 5 miles outwith your own council area. However, Lanarkshire is Level 4 - I'm thinking maybe East Lothian, the Borders or Fife would be better destinations for a ride from Edinburgh.

    Get a map and shade a five mile boundary zone all around Edinburgh council area, except for West Lothian and Lanarkshire. Then you know where you can go.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  17. gembo
    Member

    You can cycle to carnwath

    At the apple pie which is open you should try to socially distance and take a mask

    Should you?

    Up to you.

    Or Birl round the roundabout and come back. Unharmed.

    U are in a level 4 area just west of balerno and that will continue to Carnwath. Cycling to east or mid less risky for you and yours but more risky for them

    Posted 4 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    “She tells us not to look for loopholes and obey the spirit, not the letter of these regulations.“

    Which is not entirely unreasonable under ‘the circumstances’.

    But it’s not really clear what the point of some of the details/exemptions are.

    Obviously the LA borders are completely artificial so if your favourite ride from Edinburgh goes to (for instance) Musselburgh or Dalkeith then I don’t think stopping at the city limit sign is much more than a token gesture of obedience.

    However, having ignored the rule, would it be ok to go to Luca’s for an ice cream?

    Why would that be worse than cycling round Edinburgh all day and going to several eateries?

    Clearly it’s all about avoiding close contact with people, so why is it still ok to jet off on holiday?

    I’m due to meet someone in the middle of the Forth Road Bridge next week to hand over a wheel.

    The meeting point is not really about legalistically respecting the rule but the fact that the Bridge is virtually equidistant from where we both live!

    But should the recipient wear gloves and sanitise the wheel instantly, or at home??

    As has been discussed here before, there’s still not a great deal of clarity about whether people are picking up CV from surfaces or standing less than 2 metres apart for more than 15 minutes.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    “You're allowed 5 miles outwith your own council area.“

    Not heard that one.

    So Musselburgh is perfectly fine.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  20. crowriver
    Member

    Just had a look, and it's pretty restrictive. You can go along the coast to Cockenzie, but then by law technically you'd have to go no further. Although apparently you can travel up to five miles and then go walking, so maybe you'd get away with a few miles more than that, maybe to Port Seaton or a bit further. Similar if you're heading south into Midlothian, or north from the bridge into Fife: would take you into Dunfermline, Crossgates or Aberdour. Maybe a bit further if you stretch it a wee bit.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  21. ejstubbs
    Member

    @acsimpson: No questions about your walk from Castlelaw either then. You were travelling to Harlaw... Or was that the loophole you didn't need.

    We started and finished the walk i.e. the "exercise outdoors" at Castlelaw, which is within five miles of the boundary of the City of Edinburgh Council boundary, per Section 15(2)(v) of the regulations:

    Examples of reasonable excuse
    (v) exercise outdoors, provided that the exercise—
    (i)is not organised, and
    (ii)starts and ends at the same place, which place must be—
    (aa)in the local government area in which the person lives, or
    (bb)within 5 miles of such local government area

    What's not completely clear from the regulation is whether it means five travel miles or five miles as the crow files. Castlelaw is roughly three miles by road from The Steading pub (sadly currently closed) which sits just inside the CEC boundary, so if we did that outing again we could not but be compliant under either interpretation. However, the car park for Penicuik House is 5.1 miles by road from there, but only 4.8 miles in a dead straight line. Would driving there to go for a walk in the Penicuik House estate be within the regulations or not? Place your bets...

    Note that the regulation doesn't seem to say anything about how far your exercise can (or can't) take you so on the face of it, as I see it, Greenroofer's ride to Carnwath and back would be within the letter of the law. (Going by the government's recent record, if this gets corrected via an amendment to the regulations it'll be "announced" by means of a press release or an off-the-record briefing, meaning that most people won't be aware of it.)

    Posted 4 years ago #

  22. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot, according to the Beeb:

    "People can also travel up to five miles from the boundary of their council area for outdoor exercise such as walking, running or golf in groups of up to six people from no more than two households."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55015167

    Posted 4 years ago #

  23. Frenchy
    Member

    You're allowed 5 miles outwith your own council area.

    The wording in the legislation is:

    exercise outdoors [is allowed], provided that the exercise—
    (i) is not organised, and
    (ii) starts and ends at the same place, which place must be—
    -(aa) in the local government area in which the person lives,
    -or
    -(bb) within 5 miles of such local government area,

    My reading of that is "If you start and end your cycle journey within your own council area then you can go anywhere you like on that journey (including Carnwath)."

    I'm not saying that's necessarily a good idea (and I won't be doing so myself), but I don't think anyone doing so would be breaking the law.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    Carnwath rates fairly low BUT Forth, Auchengray and Braehead a fair bit higher

    Posted 4 years ago #

  25. crowriver
    Member

    Are the regulations not stricter in Level 4 areas though (like Lanarkshire)?

    Again, Beeb:

    "Everyone living in a level three or level four local authority areas must, by law, remain within their own council boundaries unless they have a "reasonable excuse" for doing so.
    People in level four must also keep journeys within their own area to an absolute minimum."

    So we might be within rights to cycle as far as we like as long as we end up back in the CEC boundary (or within 5 miles of it) but Lanarkshire folk are told to cool their heels a bit? It's not quite clear...

    Personally I reckon I'll stay clear of Level 4 areas, and head to Level 2 on the bike - East Lothian, Midlothian, Borders all reachable within a reasonable time on the bike.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  26. Morningsider
    Member

    @Greenroofer - I agree with your interpretation of the Regulations.

    Morally - I would ask "by doing this am I increasing the likelihood that other people could be infected?". I reckon it is almost impossible to infect someone by riding to/from Carnwath. The issue is what you do when/if you stop. If you want a squeaky clean conscience then avoid the lure of the Apple Pie Bakery and take your own snacks, to be guzzled alone.

    The law differentiates between "travel" and "exercise" - you are cycling for exercise, you are not travelling. Exercise is deemed a legitimate reason for leaving a level 3 area. I would argue that anything deemed a legitimate reason is by its very nature "essential". The Government has been clear throughout the pandemic that exercise is essential for physical and mental wellbeing, especially outdoor exercise.

    I would go and my conscience would be clear.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  27. crowriver
    Member

    Suppose you were an ultramarathon runner. You could drive five miles across the CEC boundary, then start your run, which would have to be a loop back to your car. So, maybe if you were a really good runner, you do a 50 mile loop? So you could have gone around 30 miles beyond the CEC boundary.

    That doesn't seem an unreasonable distance for a bike ride from Edinburgh in a day: if you started in the city centre you might have ridden nearly 80 miles by the time you get home...

    Posted 4 years ago #

  28. Greenroofer
    Member

    @crowriver - as far as I can see from reading the link @Morningsider posted above, the restrictions on exercise are the same in Level 3 and Level 4 areas. As I read them, exercise must start and end at the same point which must be within five miles of the boundary.

    I'm going to ride along the A70 for an hour then turn round and come home. I won't get as far as Carnwath. I doubt that I will catch anything from anyone (or them from me) while so doing. I'm also very confident that I'm not breaking the letter of the law, and pretty confident it's within the spirit too.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  29. stiltskin
    Member

    I definitely think you can ride as far as you like as long as you don’t stop. As I understand it outdoor transmission is extremely rare & the chance you would pass the virus on to someone as you pass by on a bike is effectively zero. I reckon that if you just ride and don’t stop for coffee or whatever you abiding by both the letter & the spirit of the law.

    Posted 4 years ago #

  30. acsimpson
    Member

    A lot of the confusion seems to come from the same problem Transport Scotland has of whether to define cycling as transport or sport/leisure. Of course we know it's both but the regulations seem to presume it's only the latter. As others have noted many of the conditions seem to have been written in a rush with no consistency of language (eg sometime things are local other times they are in the immediate vicinity but no definition of either is given)

    Under sport and exercise we are told

    "You are permitted to meet others outdoors, following the rules around meeting other households, for informal exercise or sport."
    There are no suggestions of any restrictions so presumably once we are on a bike we can continue for as long and as far as we like. This is unlike lockdown v1 where we were told not to stop while on our daily exercise. Picnics were forbidden and even taking a break on a bench could raise more than an eyebrow.

    Meanwhile under travel we get a mere suggestion that we could consider travelling by bike but otherwise cycling is still just exercise:

    "local outdoor informal exercise such as walking, cycling, golf, or running (in groups of up to 6 people from no more than 2 households) that starts and finishes at the same place (which could be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area)".

    Local appears twice in that sentence, does it have the same reach both times? There is no suggestion that you are travelling while on a bike so again I think we can go as far as we like.

    Likewise I think others have hit the nail on the head about what is moral. Don't risk passing the virus onto others. From what I understand the risk of picking up a sandwich in a local co-op to eat outdoors are pretty negligible (contact tracing uses a 15 minute timeframe), but stopping to eat lunch or drink a coffee in a cafe definitely feels like it's overstepped a mark.

    Posted 4 years ago #

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