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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Do we need a coronavirus thread?
(5710 posts)-
Posted 5 years ago #
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“
Now, the Guardian has seen a letter from the Department of Health to NHS trusts instructing them to stop buying any of their own PPE and ventilators.
...
Allyson Pollock, the director of the Newcastle University Centre for Excellence in Regulatory Science, said tasks including testing, contact tracing and purchasing should be handled through regional authorities rather than central government
...
In a separate email, sent from NHS England on Saturday, trusts have been instructed to carry out a daily stock check from the beginning of this week. They must report down to the nearest 100 their stores of 13 types of protective equipment, including gloves, aprons, masks, gowns and eye protection. The information is being gathered by Palantir, a data processing company co-founded by the Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel.
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Posted 5 years ago # -
@iwrats, alas also over on disco Biking thread
Posted 5 years ago # -
Thank you @gembo. It is a Sadness.
Posted 5 years ago # -
“
Public Health England (PHE) has long said the risk of contracting the coronavirus is lower if interactions are limited to 15 minutes, but more emphasis may be placed on this advice so that brief meetings are possible.
Concerns: Prospect is one of the unions questioning this advice, asking for the scientific evidence to be published on why 15 minutes is considered an acceptable period of time. The advice appears to be based on the theory that the risk of contracting coronavirus increases the longer someone stays in the presence of an infected colleague, but it is not clear why 15 minutes is used as the cut-off point.
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Posted 5 years ago # -
but it is not clear why 15 minutes is used as the cut-off point.
The same reason 2m was used for a safe distance. The message needs to be simple for the masses or when you can't do anything you most need to be seen to do something. Depending how charitable you're feeling.
Posted 5 years ago # -
“The same reason 2m was used for a safe distance. The message needs to be simple”
That’s probably true.
Also has the practical reality that it’s, mostly, doable and ‘acceptable’ to most people, whereas a ‘safer’ 5m (random figure) wouldn’t be.
The 15 minutes is more problematic.
Is the fact of significant levels of infections in hospitals and care homes due to proximity (almost certainly) or (partially at least) amount of exposure?
Is there any actual evidence? If so will we be told?
If someone with CV (perhaps too early to be apparent) sits in a a room all day and 10 people visit for 15 minutes and another 10 visit for 5 minutes three times, will any/all catch it.
Random scenario that no one is likely to be able to answer, but would/will complicate things.
Will it now be ok to queue at supermarket checkouts at less than 2m if the queue only takes a few minutes? Will it be ok to do that in several shops every day??
Expect yo-yo lockdowns.
Next/current issue is contact tracing and why UK wants to do it centrally and with significant emphasis on an app, which doesn’t seem to be the approach of most other countries.
Posted 5 years ago # -
“If you download the app you are doing your duty”
Hancock
(Seems to be England only though)
Posted 5 years ago # -
I would be intrigued to know;
1) Where and when this duty to acquire a smartphone, download their software and carry the smartphone at all times arose.
2) How the software was tested to make sure that its results correspond to actual risk of transmission of the virus, and
3) What the code is, where the data it generates lives, who has access to them, for how long, for what purposes and using what reporting tools.
Posted 5 years ago # -
@chdot: Also has the practical reality that it’s, mostly, doable and ‘acceptable’ to most people, whereas a ‘safer’ 5m (random figure) wouldn’t be.
Vulnerable friends of mine have pointed to a study that discuss "slipstream" from runners and cyclists potentially extending 20m (presumably behind them):
Basing social distancing on that would basically make both activities impractical other than in wide open spaces. Arguably, even walking briskly in a strong breeze would have to be carried out in a deserted area.
Posted 5 years ago # -
On a related topic: can anyone advise on the ridability of the towpath west of Slateford aqueduct at the moment? I fancy heading out west for a change on my sanctioned daily exercise and I'd prefer to keep off the roads as much as possible.
Posted 5 years ago # -
“
Questions have been raised about the app’s effectiveness. A report in the Health Service Journal on Monday – flatly denied by the government as “factually untrue” – quoted sources that claimed it was not fit for inclusion in the NHS’s own app library, had not passed basic cybersecurity tests and was still “wobbly”. It also said there were concerns about how users’ privacy would be protected once they logged symptoms and became traceable.
The NHS’s decision to take a centralised approach has also been criticised. Alan Davidson and Marshall Erwin of the not-for-profit internet organisation Mozilla said: “The biggest problem … is that it would expand government access to the ‘social graph’ – data about you, your relationships, and your links with others.
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Posted 5 years ago # -
In Austria they are easing the lockdown - shops are opening, children are going back to school (but half will be in school Monday - Wednesday and the rest in Thursday - Friday (no, don't ask me how that works)), meetings of up to 10 people are allowed, restaurants are opening but with rules about numbers of people and space between tables.
My inlaws went round to their neighbours for drinks 24 hours early...
Apparently in Germany they are protesting about contact-tracing, due to concerns about civil liberties... (again according to Mr fimm who reads German newspapers).
Posted 5 years ago # -
“study that discuss "slipstream" from runners and cyclists potentially extending 20m“
Indeed.
‘Real life’ experience of smelling perfume or cigarette smoke from a significant distance shows how (some) particles are carried by air currents.
So, it’s back to levels of exposure and/or amount.
Don’t think anyone has clear answers.
Posted 5 years ago # -
The workies laying the Balerno Fibre continue to stand in groups of 3, my neighbours wolf howled at them. Weischler I think, terrible dog for howling. Hilariously I noticed the workies are all wearing tabards that say Key Workers. No masks and no distancing
Posted 5 years ago # -
Informal aside from a friend who is professionally concerned with Scot Gov's information policies: "I wouldn't give that lot (Her Majesty's Government) my phone number, no way I'm telling them where I am and who I'm with."
Talking about Mr Hancock's spyware.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I’m not a techie but this doesn’t seem good:
UK finds itself almost alone with centralized virus contact-tracing app that probably won't work well, asks for your location, may be illegal
https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/
Posted 5 years ago # -
@stickman
What it does is reveal the thoughts of the software's designers. If you're building software to track the health of a farmer's cows you don't leave the data in the chip you implant in each beast. You keep the data centrally because cows have no privacy or dignity and the farmer's convenience is uppermost in the requirements.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Re 2 metre rule, some further figures. Not sure of basis/evidence
“ Speaking to the Health Select Committee, Sir Patrick Vallance said that spending six seconds stood one metre away from a person carries the same risk as minute spent two metres apart.
He said: “For most of us, the situation in outdoor environments is that the risk is really low and the two-metre distancing is based on a probability.
“The evidence is, as far as you can get very firm evidence on this, is essentially a minute at two metres contact is about the same as six seconds at one metre.
“That gives you an idea of why the two-metre rule becomes important.”
Posted 5 years ago # -
Multi-science associate (started with maths and physics, drifted to the others) posted a link from someone he works with about how grouped household tests can reduce the volume required, enabling successive regular re-testing etc.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2020/05/03/dr-fauci-heres-a-way-to-contain-covid-19-and-reopen-the-economy-in-as-little-as-one-month/#765891fa1c7aPosted 5 years ago # -
“Not sure of basis/evidence”
ESPECIALLY as “six seconds” is rather precise.
Must have done a lot of testing to get that...
SO
“2 metres” was arbitrary, but a good indication of how far to stay from someone who MIGHT be infectious.
BUT
1 metre is actually (potentially) dangerous IF that close for ‘more than 6 seconds’.
If 1 metre/6 secs are ‘true’, compulsory masks seem like a sensible precaution(?)
Posted 5 years ago # -
Meanwhile
Closer to home
“
UK coronavirus live: too early to reopen schools in Scotland, says Scottish government
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SG Doc -
Posted 5 years ago # -
@Murun Buchstansangar: as far as you can get very firm evidence on this
I suspect that for "very firm evidence" one should read "any evidence at all".
I believe that "evidence" is rapidly becoming this government's justification for everything- ironic for party that spent several years steadfastly refusing to base policy on evidence. However, in the absence of clear citations wherein said evidence may be found and examined, it's really just a buzzphrase that might as well mean "because we say so".
Posted 5 years ago # -
“just a buzzphrase that might as well mean "because we say so".“
Sadly, that is a rational conclusion.
Some people might add “and we don’t care what you think”.
Posted 5 years ago # -
A recent episode of Radiolab discussed this. One of the folk they interviewed said it was based on looking at seating plans on flights where one person was later found out to have been infected. Some people sat within 2m/6ft of the infected person apparently caught the infection, but people sat further away did not.
(I may have misremembered the details there.)
Link: https://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538884/radiolab?t=1588684865785 (The one called something like "Six feet".)
Posted 5 years ago # -
I'll take a hammer to my (ancient) smartphone before I'll allow the gov't to track me. This thing's dystopian enough.
Posted 5 years ago # -
In terms of the distance quantum of social distancing:
WHO says minimum of 1 metre
Italy/France/Spain say 1 metre min
Belgium went for 1.5m
Japan a very precise 1.8m
US/UK/Canada say 2m
While Vallance may be bluffing on evidence, I support 2m on the speed limit principle i.e if you specify 2m, even numpties who don’t adhere may be more likely to maintain 1m min
Posted 5 years ago # -
@Murun not those workies laying Balerno Fibre with their Key Worker vests, they are having a fab break within inches of each other as I type
Posted 5 years ago #
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