Yeah, I know.. it's not like there will be anywhere else that's much better. I guess we could try and sidestep it by moving somewhere that already has safer cycle routes (eg NEPN)
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Scottish Govmt announces £10m for pop up cycle/walking lanes
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Posted 3 years ago #
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Sorry to hear that Dave, and FWIW, I often feel the same way.
Is it really the majority view though, or just a handful of vocal opponents? Also to remember: people using the nursery are not representative of the whole area.
Where would you go?
Delft (or anywhere) in the Netherlands. Freiburg in Germany - all look nice. The only thing stopping us is not wanting to upset the children's education...
Posted 3 years ago # -
It really feels like Edinburgh Council just do not care about the safety of residents in deprived neighbourhoods. Because our houses are worth less, so are our lives. ... I know a lot of this is down to the active, able communities in these [middle class] neighbourhoods campaigning for improvements. But it is also down to officers and councillors just not caring, or thinking, about deprived neighbourhoods.
I started thinking about this a while back when I saw that people on the local Facebook groups often say things like "the council will learn to give this area [whatever it wants because we are mostly loud and often retired with lots of time to complain]" and "we don't want more than our fair share" although that means disproportionately soaking up council time / funds relative to somewhere like Wester Hailes.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I’ve recalled on here before being at a meeting of (mostly CEC) people considering where to spend ‘cycling’ money - it was many years ago.
The consensus was that it should be where people already cycled - predominantly in and around the city centre.
One CEC person (not from ‘transport’) argued strongly that it should be in areas with lower amounts of cycling - which could, generally, have been thought of as more WC than MC.
I’m sure most of ‘us’ are very conscious of the power of people pressure grouping and consider (mostly correctly) that what ‘we’ tend to argue for would benefit more than just ‘us’ in ways that many (perceived as) NIMBY campaigns appear to be more selfish.
I was told yesterday of a park user group (Edinburgh) that seems to have been set up for the benefit/interests of nearby residents more than actual (and potential) users.
Posted 3 years ago # -
The consensus was that it should be where people already cycled - predominantly in and around the city centre.
The current priority is still the city centre, although the justification is more along the lines of providing "missing links" (such as Roseburn-Canal), since these provide the highest benefits:cost ratio. An argument, even as an outskirts-dweller, I find it hard to argue against.
Simultaneously, there is plenty of money/attention outwith the city centre on new roads (Sheriffhall, Midlothian "relief" road, M8 widening, extra lanes for the bypass). These will make it harder to provide cycling improvements on arterial routes such as Gilmerton Road when the council does get round to it.
If just a fraction of the money currently being spent on big new roads around Edinburgh was being spent on active travel instead, then there would be no need for a "city centre or outskirts" debate.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Except this is all nonsense. The NEPN and Innocent Railway serve some of the city's most deprived areas. The tram path links Saughton and Sighthill with the city centre. The union canal towpath runs through Wester Hailes. The Straiton paths link with Gilmerton and surrounds.
It isn't just existing infrastructure - the new Leith Walk cycle lanes will serve deprived communities and the proposed city centre lanes will make the existing facilities more useful for everyone.
There are complex social and economic reasons, as well as the availability of safe cycling infrastructure, driving differences in cycling uptake between socio-economic groups. The anti-cycle lane campaigners are simply chucking out any and every thing they can think of the oppose the lanes. Odd how the suggestion that Currie and Wester Hailes high schools should be merged didn't seem to get the level of support you would expect from people so concerned about the plight of the working classes.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Pennywell Road and Muirhouse Parkway had lanes repurposed for cycling. Existing LTNs in the area too.
Posted 3 years ago # -
“The NEPN and Innocent Railway serve some of the city's most deprived areas. The tram path links Saughton and Sighthill with the city centre. The union canal towpath runs through Wester Hailes. The Straiton paths link with Gilmerton and surrounds.“
Yes but.
The former railway bits are a seriously fortuitous industrial legacy. Most of the repurposing work was done (or at least started) by Lothian Region. (Key player Phil Noble - yes, the same one).
LRC was insistent on ‘road standard’ paths - decent sub-base plus 3m wide. Edinburgh (then) District Council were doing paths to ‘park’ standard - fairly basic and often only 1 metre.
Park Department was also ‘tarmac averse’ - ‘to preserve the rural character’, which is why the direct path from Craigmillar to the dump via the playpark wasn’t tarmacced...
The CERT/Tram route from Edinburgh Park to Broomhouse demonstrates all sorts of missed opportunities (particularly road crossings) and spending priorities.
Posted 3 years ago # -
“If just a fraction of the money currently being spent on big new roads around Edinburgh was being spent on active travel instead, then there would be no need for a "city centre or outskirts" debate.“
So true.
Posted 3 years ago # -
It's an interesting article. My take from it is not so much the lack of cycling infrastructure in more deprived areas but rather it's that they are still a hostile place to both walk and cycle due to many residential areas still being 30mph and the lack of safe crossing places. I've noticed that in the most recent phase of SfP/road upgrades the road outside my old high school has now finally been reduced to 20 as well as cycle lanes being put in. Having a 30mph road outside a school for so long is probably exactly the sort of thing the author is talking about.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Had a walk round Wester Hailes the other day - my old stomping ground, my colleague with whom I had the walking meeting was not happy I was saying hello to everyone. I was wearing a very flowery shirt. I would not have taken that stroll at night.
Wester Hailes has the greenway that the planners put in when the houses were built and it has the towpath. The roads are fairly safe as wide some with painted lanes
craigmillar has innocent but lot of building work going on and a really narrow road in and out
Muir house has NEPN abut ferry road bad (I use parallel road) and Penny well road bad then you can get on to the prom. And the really mad stushie about four parking spots and the bollards at Silverknowes.
The wider point of course is that money is available in peripheral areas but the staff running projects leave at home time as mostly don’t live in the community. I know two who did, a youth worker and a Church of Scotland minister.
Posted 3 years ago # -
“The wider point of course is that money is available in peripheral areas but the staff running projects“
take a large chunk of the money?
(and take it home?)
Posted 3 years ago # -
No they are paid salaries they then spend in cafes in Morningside etc. they work hard and turn up in the tougher parts of town. I am not knocking the staff. Just observing they do not live in the areas they work in. Volunteers maybe come for a term or two. Tough gig.
Funding peripheral areas done through communities too. Sometimes there is stuff that requires change of personnel Sometimes those running the show used to live in the area and moved away.
Murky at times for sure.
Posted 3 years ago # -
But talking of peripheral and deprived is a different part of the problem.
Having worked with various schools I know that most kids like bikes and using them to go places.
Kids from less well off households tend to have poorer bikes - notably heavier and probably in worse condition, but they are keen to use them.
Some schools have the advantage of teachers interested in cycling (and taking kids out on bikes). Some schools are conveniently close to the Innocent or the NEPN.
Many trips are made easier with road crossings in the right place. Access to/knowledge of quieter roads helps.
This is part of a different binary. Rather than city centre v suburbs it’s more about whether to make adults feel ‘safe’ on main roads or do more to encourage children.
That can have two benefits - the potential for more ‘lifelong’ cyclists AND chance to get more adults (parents) to start cycling (usually
This is why things like cycling to school projects (often started/enabled by CCEers!) are so important and the ‘Safe Routes to Schools’ projects - if not too compromised by ‘traffic flow’ and NIMBYs.
Posted 3 years ago # -
“they do not live in the areas they work in“
Largely true of teachers too for similar (and understandable) reasons.
Too many projects (not just ‘social deprivation’ ones) seem to be funded with the hope that the ‘intervention’ will ‘work’ or somehow continue with ‘sustainable’ funding...
Posted 3 years ago # -
Good to see there is at least one journo keeping up the tradition of the three bottle lunch.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Yup, he has phoned that in from Vintners Room, see the earlier copy I submitted a week or two back, move the first para to the end and the last para to the front, they will never notice. Hic burp.
Meanwhile the big roulette wheel that is the gyratory continues to confound and it took 80 mins from slateford to gillespies X road last night as bypass shut because a lorry fell over and this tory cat is concerned about a few bollards and a planter he can get his underlings to move out his way
Posted 3 years ago # -
And using the ABD as a source!
Posted 3 years ago # -
the Association of British Drivers believes causing an unnecessary hazard could be illegal
They're talking about some painted bicycle symbols indicating that cyclists can (and should) take primary at pinch points.
They are not talking about overtaking cyclists at pinch points.
We have to share the road with these people.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Yes, well into that third bottle - the ABD changed its name to Alliance of British Drivers nine years ago.
Funny thing is, even the ABD don't use the ABD as a source.
They disowned their representative that gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament on the 20mph speed limit Bill just hours after his appearance because, unsurprisingly, it was a car crash.Posted 3 years ago # -
A trip up and down the Lanark Road today.
Uphill much less stressful with the cycleway now. Van in shot below actually got out the way.
Coming back into town is slower on lanes but if this gets more peopel cycling then good.
Lanark Road to Gillespie crossroads really needs cycle lanes. Was held up by the traffic on many occasions (!) An amazing volume of cars stuck in a huge line heading east.
Best improvement was the new protected lane at Slateford where you can cut through across Megget.Picture of foot with downhill lanes.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'm at PY and it's about the first time I've come in to town on the road (vs canal).
I'm not sure about some of the bollards, hard because I'm trying to imagine it from a new cyclist's perspective but...
Under the canal on the A70 was ok. I would normally have merged into traffic before the bridge and follow the number plate in front, but at least most traffic is bearing right at the corn exchange junction so you don't feel too pinched when the bollards end.
When shandon place joins from the right, the short stretch of bollards after the lights seems like a right cluster £#@&. There was a van next to me, when the bollards end he merged right over the space I was riding in as the road narrows. Before this I would always be 'in' the traffic so this could never happen. Since 99% of that stretch has no bollards I'm not sure who will ride there who wouldn't have anyway.
Coming up to the west approach road slip I actually just rode behind a van as there was a slow cyclist in the bollards. I always used to come out of the cycle lane a few car lengths before the slip road to prevent left hooks, but a normal cyclist would never do that. Can't decide if I think the risk is greater with bollards or not.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I always used to come out of the cycle lane a few car lengths before the slip road to prevent left hooks, but a normal cyclist would never do that.
'Normal' being a casual bike user that prefers to stay within 1m of kerb you mean? Yes... agree that the lanes curb your desire to get into traffic flow.
I also have to accept that following a cyclist is a fact and if, somehow. cycling became the dominant means of transport in city then the relatively narrow lanes means you stay in a traffic flow, much like driving. I do sometimes go round the raised floating bus platform heading toward Mound. This lets me get into traffic flow with current works at hotel. The quite sharp bump has also to be taken at a lower speed too but accept that without it the worries of non cyclists would be even more.
Like many I look at these as prototype structures. Other non cyclists maybe see many of these lanes as an aberration (similar to coastal defences in WWII) and hope they will disappear so their car use can be as before.Posted 3 years ago # -
@LaidBack: agree that the lanes curb your desire to get into traffic flow.
Heading north along Comiston Road intending to go along Braid Road, I have taken to turning right up Riselaw Crescent rather than duking it out with drivists ignoring the 20mph limit past Mortonhall Golf Club and/or overtaking on the blind summit. To do that you basically have to leave the cycle lane no later than immediately after the parking spaces - preferably sooner - in order to get across in to the right turn filter space for Riselaw Crescent. If you can't manage that then, given the volume of traffic using that road these post-lockdown days, you basically have to dismount in the "ghost pavement" area at the mouth of Comiston Springs Avenue and cross on foot via the refuge.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Not really about us though is it? Such measures as we discuss here succeed or fail on the numbers of previously reticent cyclists that get on their bikes.
Posted 3 years ago # -
While I like most of the SfP schemes, the Dundee Street lane combined with the West Approach Road slip is really not good.
The bollarded bike lane prior to the sliproad is window-dressing at best, an actual hazard at worst. Instead, that slip-road should simply be shut, or made bus only. Its presence (and the driving encouraged by it) makes that whole section horribly hostile. Nothing is gained if the previously reticent cyclists, having got on their bikes, get so thoroughly scared by a near miss (or worse, actually hit) that they give up.
I put all this into the SfP consultation, for what that is worth. I take comfort from the fact that while the lane doesn't address the real problem (the sliproad) it does at least indicate an intent to do better.
Pre-lane, taking primary before the sliproad would likely get you some grief from a certain sort of drivist; the situation hasn't improved post-lane. Though personally I couldn't care less what the <rule-2>s think (and often I take great delight in inducing gammony fury) this is far from a universal reaction.
Sadly I suspect most of the target users will still avoid Dundee street. And with good reason. It's a pity, as once you get further up towards Fountainbridge things are considerably less hostile.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Posted 3 years ago #
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“
"This Spaces for People scheme has involved engagement with residents of Salvesen Terrace as well as local businesses in the past, which resulted in changes to proposed measures since they were first designed last year. We are aware of the parking issue described by the resident and we will consider if it’s possible to make amendments the future."
“
Posted 3 years ago # -
I assume that article was translated from the original Cantonese using google translate, as it makes almost no grammatical sense. I suppose you could argue that I don't either, but I'm not running a newspaper.
Posted 3 years ago #
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