CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
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It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
For lobbing a fire extinguisher off a roof. Now. Personally I think this is about right. It was an insanely reckless act that could have very easily killed or seriously injured someone. He was lucky. It landed where it hit no-one.
So, what's the average sentence for a driver actually killing a cyclist?
"So, what's the average sentence for a driver actually killing a cyclist?"
Good question (in the context).
Answer - 'not a lot/enough' (usually).
You got stats??
It's got me thinking about looking for them...
Had exactly the same thought yesterday!
A few minutes watching "Road Wars" on whatever low rent channel it's on will provide ample evidence that truly mental behaviour beind the wheel is not punnished on the same scale, especially if no-one is actually injured. I have no idea why not.
Does anyone ever get a jail sentence for killing a cyclist?
Is there a simple way to get actual numbers instead of going by gut feel which is liable to bias.
Another thought is to compare sentences to other non driving related deaths. You can't really include Murder as more often than not the intent isn't there to kill the cyclist so your on to Negligence which i'm not sure gets terribly harsh sentences. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
The going rate seems to be about £300, I think.
Interesting discussion considering last night I had a London cabbie cut in front of me even so there wasn't enough space and I had to slam on my brakes. Then later on he was asking me if I wanted to die, and that he'd make it nice and easy for me.
Unfortunately after a recent incident where I was knocked off my bike by a motorist forcing their way in front of me when there wasn't the space, and many other near misses where I've had to slam on the brakes, I now get a bit shouty and make sure that my hands stay firmly on the handlebars.
A big part of it is that cyclists are still an out-group. Like people of different nationalities, religion or race, this makes it much easier to dehumanise and behave towards them in a reprehensable manner.
Probably if you met the taxi driver socially, in a context where group-allegiance is not obvious, you'd discover he was an awesome bloke.
Of course, threatening to kill someone with your car (where the threat is easily followed through, and probably is in a large number of cases that never make it off the ground) should be taken a lot more seriously than it is.
Even if you were to have video footage of someone driving at you and screaming that they were going to kill you, the CPS might not find it worth their while to pursue, as the Cycling Silk recently discovered.
Try running at a police officer with any other weapon, screaming you're going to kill them (perhaps because where they're standing is holding you up as you walk to the bus stop) and see if it doesn't get a little more attention!
But then, we're an out-group to the police and legal system too.
Some recent fatal accident cases involving cyclists:
1. Catriona Patel case - driver sentenced to 7 years in prison.
2. Brian Taylor case - driver initially sentenced to 12 month driving ban, increased to 4 year ban on appeal.
3. Mick Garner case - driver sentenced to 10 months in prison.
4. Louise Stoddart case - driver sentenced to 5 years in prison.
Need to bear in mind that what the drivers were convicted of was not the same in each case. Also, sentencing for the same offence can vary depending on the circumstances of a particular case.
Would be interesting to look at stats for sentences handed down to drivers convicted of a particular offence, say causing death by careless driving, to see whether they are lighter in cases where the victim was a cyclist as opposed to a different kind of road user.
Hmmm, good idea. Now, where can I find that information? FOI it?
Check the Guardian's data store in case someone's already compiled it. What about that road-traffic-accident-density Google map thing which did the rounds a while back? If the data was also available in handy spreadsheet form with a column for 'victim transport mode' it'd save you some time.
"Judge Howard Crowson gave Daniels a one-year community order with 80 hours unpaid work and supervision. He was also ordered to pay £200 compensation."
For assault
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00xbdvr/5_live_Breakfast_10_01_2011
Executive Kevin Mayne (CTC) took part in a debate on Radio 5 Live (play from 2.22 to 2.28) with motoring journalist Adam Rayner and robustly defended cyclists' right to use the road safely, asserting that: "Cyclists are not stupid. The risk is posed by the tin box. The duty of care is on the motorist."
Listening to Adam Rayner got my hackles up, depressing. I thought he was an idiot, typical car driver having a rant about cyclists who he perceives as a nuisance at best, and goes on about cycling proficiency tests etc, we would all like to see the return of such a thing but given the lack of police budgets and community budgets for this it will not be returning anytime soon. Strewth, heaven help us, he is a pundit and head of the AA, with views like his really, and sadly he is a spokesman for many who hold the same view, what hope have we.
Bus driver who caused death of cyclist given community service
A bus driver who caused the death of a cyclist has been ordered to carry out 180 hours of community service and been banned from driving for a year.
Edinburgh Sheriff Court heard Jill Corps, 42, crashed into cyclist Thomas McKay, 46, while she was at work.
Corps, who was a Lothian Buses driver, was taking a mini-bus to a pre-arranged drop off point when she smashed into Mr McKay, who was on his way home.
The court heard Corps turned right into the path of Mr McKay, who was unable to avoid the collision. He was thrown from his bike and onto the windscreen and roof of the minibus...
(continues in article)
180 hours is quite a lot (in fact, this is a pretty serious punishment for a careless driving offence that didn't involve, say, driving at 150% of the speed limit on the wrong side of the road around a blind corner).
So, on that front I think a reasonable result. All too often the police don't bother to charge or the CPS decline to prosecute in such cases, so getting to this stage is good (however awful it is that just getting a prosecution should be 90% of the battle).
I don't personally believe that sending people to prison is necessarily a deterrent to this sort of driving behaviour or likely to improve anyone's outcome. Dependant on the driver and the incident, of course.
*However*, only a year's driving ban? Not very impressive. I would have thought 3-5 years should be the very minimum after a homicide, and certainly there should be an extended re-test required, even if there's no ban.
There was a study by CTC I think some years ago that looked at ingroup/outgroup conflict between motorists and cyclists. Alas I can't find the link to the report. I think though that the kind of 'tribal' behaviour exhibited against cyclists and cycling can be easily explained by the 'outgroup' theory. It's the fear of not fitting in to what is perceived as 'normal' that is at work I think. Concerns about safety are just a convenient projection masking the actual anxieties about status, wanting to fit in, and not wanting to appear as 'strange'.
How on earth careering around in several hundredweight of steel came to be seen as 'normal' deserves some serious study I think. The vested interests of car manufacturers, the advertising industry and the petroleum industry would feature quite heavily in the social pressure to drive...
For an example of how dangerous driving is tolerated by the legal system despite causing death, see how this killer avoided prison despite his reckless driving.
See below for more on the Sheriff who lets killer drivers off for killing a human being, yet imprisons someone for killing a puppy:
Sentencing him to six months behind bars for the attack, Sheriff Craig McSherry said: “I understand there are others ways of dealing with this but striking a dog with such force as to cause its skull to fracture deserves a custodial penalty.”
Somehow though, killing a person while driving 20mph over the speed limit on the wrong side of the road only merits community service and a temporary driving ban?
Sheriff McSherry told McKay: "Had you been driving at a reckless speed you would be facing a charge of reckless driving. This quite obviously had a terrible outcome for the family of the accused, but in saying that, I do not believe the level of carelessness is substantial enough to merit a sentence of imprisonment."
We need to campaign for much tougher legal penalties against drivers who kill. Additionally, changing the law so that the presumption of liability is always on the driver of a large chunk of metal travelling at high speed is absolutely necessary. This would help to reduce the aggressive behaviour of some drivers towards vulnerable road users, including cyclists. It works in other countries, such as the Netherlands.
Currently judges and sheriffs take too lenient a view towards reckless drivers who kill cyclists or pedestrians. Lax attitudes towards speeding is a particular problem when cases come to trial. 60mph in a 40mph zone is dangerous driving, and should be punished accordingly. Extension of 20mph zones to cover city centres and residential districts should also happen.
It needs to be legally and socially unacceptable to speed in a car, van, or lorry. This will make the roads and streets safer for everyone.
Further info:
Yes... thought that was a bad case.
Death by car can always be handled even more leniently.
For example... I've read this story several times now...
Police officer cleared over hit-and-run death
"...the driver of the car, who initially continued on his journey before later returning to the scene, was a police constable who had just finished a shift nearby."
"A spokesman for Lothian and Borders Police confirmed that the officer, whose identity has never been revealed, had been cleared and continued to serve with the force."
I couldn't figure that one out either, Laidback. I like to think that there was a good legal reason why no prosecution was ever forthcoming and why the details of the officer were protected. I really do like to. I just can't think what it is.
And this one earlier just boggled my mind;
"A Putney driver involved in a fatal collision with a teenage cyclist has been sentenced to 100 hours unpaid work."
http://www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk/news/9029976.Community_service_for_woman_who_failed_to_stop
The implication is that the cyclist was 'at fault' and the sentence is for not stopping.
But...
She also had a tyre on her car that was unfit to drive with.
"A BOY RACER who killed a would-be teacher in a high-speed hit and run accident was jailed for five years and eight months today."
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Boy-racer-jailed-for-killing.6770325.jp
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