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We need a Scottish Parliament election thread

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  1. gembo
    Member

    @iwrats, sorry meant the material, was a telly play

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. Baldcyclist
    Member

    scotGov may have been asked not to publish the evidence, but all they have done is unpublish the link. The pdf is still there,36 pages of unredacted Alex Salmond statement. The Spectator has linked the source on Twitter, I'll not repost the link here.

    *Correction, there are 2 redactions, a senior police officer, and a lawyer's names are redacted.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Hard to imagine an ill ploy better designed to make Scotland look like a Ruritanian backwater.

    I have started asking candidates for Edinburgh Southern to get in touch to present themselves. I hope at least one isn't a crank of some variety. I do want to vote but they are making it very hard.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    It's insane. The Crown Office has put itself above the courts and the Parliament. And NS has put herself above all of them.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. stiltskin
    Member

    Perhaps I shouldn't be, but I am slightly surprised & disappointed by the way in which people's attitudes to this are almost entirely dictated by their politics.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I'm politically an extreme left wing libertarian. I guess that has a bearing on this in that I am not keen on secret machinations by the powerful?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    “I am slightly surprised & disappointed by ... “

    On CCE primarily or wider?

    It’s undoubtedly true that people hold opinions on all sorts of things informed/biased by their political allegiances.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. stiltskin
    Member

    So. I admit I'm not a Salmond fan & that clearly this is not a straightforward case. However. Before all these shenanigans started there was the initial issue that preceded it. You have a man, in a position of some power, about whom a number of women have made allegations. Whose QC on the closing day of the trial said "I’m not here to suggest he always behaved well or couldn’t have been a better man on occasions. That would be a waste of my time" & told the jury to find the charges proved requires a “very, very high standard of proof”. & also said there was a “pattern” where “something that was thought nothing of at the time” has become a criminal charge
    Now, I'm trying to think about how I would react if the defendant had been a Tory minister, or a Hollywood mogul or any other sort of similar person & his brief has said the above, whilst effectively alleging that 9 different women had come up with these stories in a conspiracy to damage them after they had retired. TBH I think I'd be thinking "this is why MeToo happened."
    That's why I think people are judging this on the basis of their politics. It's almost a Trump/Republican party member situation.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Now Salmond’s not turning up.

    (Tomorrow)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I liked Salmond as a politician, voted for him a number of times, thought when the trial came up he was guilty and going away for a long time.

    But a court of his peers have judged him to be innocent.

    Do I think there was a conspiracy at the highest level to frame him? Not a chance.
    Do I think people tried to cover up a rule 2 show of incompetence by lying to parliament, and supposedly 'forgetting' about conversations, 100% sure I believe that. Salmond's recollection of the meeting dates and conversations had seem to be crystal clear, as I suspect are others who were involved in those same conversations.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    I'm not a Salmond fan either, thought he would go down, was surprised when he didn't.

    But now, for me, it's about the impartiality of the Scottish law authorities. And the necessary ability of the Scottish Parliament to scrutinise even the highest of its own members and of the Scottish Govt.

    'Now Salmond’s not turning up.'

    No, probably not, not before Friday, because we're back to where we were last week. Once again the Crown Office will likely try to imprison him if he does and provides his full statement. Maybe more court to see what Lady Dorrian has to say.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    “Before all these shenanigans started there was the initial issue that preceded it.“

    Yes, and a court case that allegedly only happened because some people were encouraged to complain. Not in any way suggesting that anything was made up or that complaining wasn’t the right thing to do.

    THEN no convictions and some people feeling that was unjust and others feeling it’s unjust to ignore the trial result.

    I have no idea if anyone is lying (though I assume it’s a bit more than just under-remembering.)

    I assume AS regrets resigning and no doubt is aggrieved by the rest. But that doesn’t really explain the extent to which he wants to damage his former party - ESPECIALLY just before an election.

    It’s not as though there is ANY prospect of him returning to head the SNP OR any other party.

    All a distraction on so many levels.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    Can’t say if I agree with this, it’s behind a paywall -

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-salmond-inquiry-forget-talk-of-a-conspiracy-this-is-about-revenge-bms7fdsf5

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    But this is not:

    https://archive.is/7Xmry

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/neil-lennon-breaks-celtic-exit-23554808

    ‘That’s got nothing to do with the SP election.’

    Really?

    Which story will get more coverage today...

    (From previous link!) -

    It is a wonder the list does not include the SPFL for its decision in May 2020 to relegate Salmond’s beloved Heart of Midlothian football club from the Scottish Premiership.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @stiltskin

    It's almost a Trump/Republican party member situation.

    Mr Salmond was investigated by 20 detectives for a year with the full backing of the Scottish and British governments. They carried out hundreds of interviews. They couldn't secure a single conviction from a majority female jury in a majority unionist city sitting in front of a female judge. The seven key defence witnesses were all female.

    So if one wants to view it through a feminist lens one has to decide which women to believe. The complainers or the judge, jury and witnesses. If 20 detectives went over my life with the full backing of the state for a year I'd be in prison.

    In the trial a WhatsApp message from one of the complainers to another was read out in open court but not admitted as evidence: 'I have a plan so that we can remain anonymous but have maximum effect.' That plan seems to be going badly wrong.

    The Scottish Government was threatened by Lord Pentland over its unwillingness to release documents as and when ordered. Their own lawyers threatened to resign the day before a judgement. Punitive damages were awarded against them. The Times openly called for Lesley Evans to be sacked a year ago. She got a contract extension and a pay rise.

    I don't know what you mean by the Trump reference but this stuff is all documented in the public domain. The absolute minimum that one has to accept is either:

    1) Lesley Evans invented an unlawful retrospective staff code under her own steam, passed confidential complaints to the Crown Office, bypassing the police and initiating a failed prosecution thus costing us all millions without Ms Sturgeon's knowledge but also without any effect on her career.
    2) The above but with Ms Sturgeon's knowledge. Ms Sturgeon is famously a keen micro-manager.

    I don't automatically take the view that women always act for the purest of motives. I think they can be every bit as grubby and nasty as men as well as exploited and manipulated. A competent conspirator makes use of their victim's real failings. I suspect that's what's happened here.

    What do you think has happened?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    As a moderator I’m uncomfortable about such detailed speculation with people being named however much it is ‘based’ on ‘apparent evidence’.

    I don’t really expect legal action to be taken against CCE, but there is also the issue of taking strong positions that have already had adverse effects on CCEers.

    I care more about CCE than AS and NS.

    If this seems like mild hypocrisy because i have posted links and opinions, it may be so.

    The fundamental point is that in the near term there will be a new SGov run by the same (or different) people with plans that will affect transport, land use etc.

    Sadly such important things are currently hidden behind an ongoing soap opera, which has a certain entertainment value but is ‘big picture’ irrelevant - apart from important issues of governance and accountability.

    It’s complicated.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @chdot

    Feel free to delete. All will out in the end.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. stiltskin
    Member

    What do you think has happened?
    I think that Salmond was a slimeball who treated the women he worked with in a manner which is unacceptable by the First Minister of a progressive country. Everything else follows on from this. Obviously there has been ‘stuff’ going on related to who he is. What this actually consisted of I will admit to being completely unsure.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    ADMIN EDIT

    Maybe we're all slimeballs?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. stiltskin
    Member

    Maybe MeToo never happened

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. jonty
    Member

    I'm glad, chdot, that you have finally found a line for when rhetoric around sexual harassment and assault becomes unacceptable, but I have to agree with previously expressed views that it's not enough. I know you are very fond of your two simple rules, but many other spaces have found that situations like these prove the need for a longer, but simple and clear code of conduct. Perhaps instituting one of these would help to make CCE seem more like an inclusive and welcoming space than a gentleman's club where anything goes.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. 14Westfield
    Member

    The holyrood investigation -or rather it’s continued problems with Scot Gov and the crown offfice has made top item on Radio 4 news.

    It seem this is now getting traction south of the wall.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. crowriver
    Member

    "...getting traction south of the wall."

    There is an election coming up in a few months' time.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    @ jonty

    Thanks for that.

    A code of conduct is a fine idea.

    Someone has to write one.

    Not sure if implicit ‘buy in’ of existing members is reasonable.

    More importantly, someone would have to interpret and implement it.

    Feel free to start a thread titled something like ‘Do we need a code of conduct thread’.

    It may like to consider how to best deal with unreasonable people without a CofC.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. minus six
    Member

    Feel free to delete

    indeed, feel free to delete any and all posts i have ever made

    maybe even set up a script to do it weekly

    i'm only here for the here and now

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

  28. chdot
    Admin

    So it’s perhaps not surprising that this winter, Scotland’s political debate has become the latest victim of one of the most striking features of this new age of political communications; in essence, the development of polarised, parallel universes of perception and belief, in which real dialogue and consensus become all but impossible.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/alex-salmond-inquiry-conspiracy-theories-about-a-plot-are-now-being-used-by-mainstream-opponents-of-nicola-sturgeons-government-joyce-mcmillan-3147302

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. neddie
    Member

    Have we all forgotten that Alex Salmond went to Russia to star in a TV show?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    Did he go to Russia as well as appearing on RT?

    Posted 3 years ago #

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