I think it would be polite not to say that unless you can substantiate your claim. Andy is a serious figure in our public life and he merits a minimum of respect. We've all got opinions on his opinions but there's no need to invent opinions for him. He has plenty and doesn't hide them.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
We need a Scottish Parliament election thread
(1355 posts)-
Posted 4 years ago #
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@jonty, the kind of absolutist positioning around identity politics that you've just engaged in to condemn Andy Wightman, is exactly why I left the Scottish Greens several months ago. Issues around gender identity, whilst important, have lately become a complete distraction from what used to be the core policies and principles of the Green movement.
I wouldn't be surprised if the SGP lost many more members in the wake of Andy Wightman's resignation. I can only hope that the SGP Holyrood campaign does not focus on identity politics, otherwise you may well be scuppered. I'll still vote Green on the list, but I've now lost my Green constituency candidate.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@iwrats: It is unusual to resign from a trans-inclusive party, explicitly citing their attitude to trans-inclusivity, if you hold trans-inclusive views. But as you say, I'm sure the details will become clear over time.
@crowriver: The alleged conflict between Achieving The Ultimate Goal and fighting for the rights of minority groups has plagued leftist groups since time immemorial. I personally don't consider the rights of individuals to be free of prejudice and discrimination in their everyday life to be a 'distraction' from anything. There is no point in fighting for the planet if we then permit whole segments of society to be excluded from enjoying it.
It's only "identity politics" if you're not affected by it. Then it becomes "my right to exist."
Posted 4 years ago # -
@jonty
Andy's statement is online. Anyone can read it. He cites 'intolerance', 'provocative, alienating and confrontational' language and a party 'censorious' of deviation.
He does not explicitly cite the thing you say he explicitly cites and I don't think that's very polite if I am to be honest.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@jonty, the rights of individuals to live freely within their identities was never at issue within the SGP throughout my decade long membership. Such rights were always recognised as important and integral to a progressive political platform.
Rather, the problem was a decidedly Stalinist misuse and weaponisation of the term "transphobe" to demonise and ostracise anyone who might deviate from a particular party line on certain issues of identity politics. That the SGP, of all parties, chose to align itself in such a way with what has been an incredibly polarising debate more broadly, is deeply tragic. It's akin to the misuse and weaponisation of the term "antisemitism" within the Labour Party recently. It's also a strategic error which will most likely damage the party's longer term electoral chances.
Good luck winning over undecided traditional Labour voters by hectoring them on this issue...
Posted 4 years ago # -
I'm sure there were plenty of "traditional Labour voters" put off by the idea of scrapping section 28 and teaching about homosexuality in schools (not that "the debate" is over on that one either) though there are few tears shed for them these days.
Don't be surprised when a movement willing to play fast and loose with its principles for "strategic" reasons later drops the "bike weirdos" or even the "green crap" next time an electoral hurdle appears.
Posted 4 years ago # -
He cites 'intolerance', 'provocative, alienating and confrontational' language and a party 'censorious' of deviation.
Political parties should be intolerant of certain things. They should be provocative, alienating and confrontational on certain things. They should be censorious of deviation on certain issues.
The membership of the SGP thinks that transphobia should be one of those things, and I'm also glad it does. The world would be a better place if more political parties followed suit.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@Frenchy
For sure, no problem with that. I'm all for the open critique of ideas but that has to be based on people's actual words and whether they correspond with reality or not.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@jonty, portraying partisan factionalism as the defence of undying principle is very Stalinist.
The SGP itself declared recently that its electoral strategy for 2021 was to try to win over disillusioned former Labour voters. Good luck with that!
@Frenchy, it's very easy to say something like "transphobes are unwelcome" and appear virtuous and uncontroversial - I mean, who could disagree, right? Who decides when someone is apparently a "transphobe" though? It's a bit like the old Soviet term "counter-revolutionary" - it can be used by those who want to get rid of someone in just about any way they see fit.
I see the whole sorry episode as a tragic, and potentially fatal, polarisation of internal politics in the SGP. I fear that the party will rapidly dwindle to a rump of ideologically rigid purists, and thus become largely irrelevant electorally. As the likes of the SSP, and then RISE did. Which would be a great disservice to those people in Scotland left unrepresented by the mainstream parties.
Posted 4 years ago # -
This is CCE so I’m sure things can remain civil.
This is news and this is the correct thread to discuss things relating to the forthcoming election.
I am aware of large scale failing-out among friends - very real and the Facebook variety.
It’s all too easy to say the ‘wrong’ thing - as judged by a majority or a minority (WHATEVER the issue).
Some things seem to be beyond rational debate and/or made difficult by people with unmovable views (which may or may not be absolute/correct/fact etc).
This is not like ‘you should/shouldn’t wear a helmet’ or ‘advance stop lines are a good idea’.
Such things have been discussed here and some people have altered their views.
The reason(s) behind AW’s resignation and the internal debates of the GP - and the wider context may challenge some people’s views/patience.
I’m not trying to shut things down, but this should be a long running thread.
After strong views/debates about Helmets across several threads someone set up a new ‘THE Helmet’ thread.
Be careful out there.
Respect.
Posted 4 years ago # -
there's only one way to settle this
assemble the family values straights at the top of the high street
and the gender fluid crew down by the tron
FIGHT
Posted 4 years ago # -
@bax San you have given the downhill advantage to the straights?
Harry Hill would have best of three but the third bout would need to switch to flat site at the meadows
Posted 4 years ago # -
@gembo
the straights have the moral high ground, as is their wont
Posted 4 years ago # -
Thanks Frenchy, Jonty.
I am bone-weary, sad and disappointed - and not just in Andy Wightman.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Ah Bax San, you speak truth to power, they do like it up there don’t they though
Posted 4 years ago # -
@bax
No, needs to be three-way like Kabadi. Minimum. Or a series of play-offs. Imagine if the Covenanters had known of Dodgeball. The Killing Times might have been the Dodging, Ducking, Dipping, Diving and Dodging Times.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I see this is still CCE.
Posted 4 years ago # -
If it was truly CCE you would point out that I have misspelled 'kabaddi'.
Corrections, Clarifications, Errata.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Used to love watching the Kabaddi cats on the old Channel 4 back in the red triangle days.
On the whole I am voting this is. CCE
Posted 4 years ago # -
Yeah Kabaddi played in big, cold Edinburgh flats was a thing. Could be again.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Joe Fitzpatrick has quit as Public Health Minister.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Yes he had full backing of Nicola Sturgeon too.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Interested to see what Ms Constance proposes to do, but if she tries to work inside the framework of criminalisation of drugs and users she'll just be killing people.
This is the classic trap of devolution: you wind up trying to implement a better version of a fundamentally counter-productive policy.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Appointing someone who turned up to officially tour a ski resort in the depths of winter in stilettos. Yeah, that’ll work.
Posted 4 years ago # -
“This is the classic trap of devolution: you wind up trying to implement a better version of a fundamentally counter-productive policy.“
Maybe/not
It’s easy for SG to say ‘if only Westminster would let us’.
BUT
Is there any evidence they have ‘a plan’?
Maybe (sacked) PH minister wasn’t doing what was expected of him by NS re drugs or other PH issues in-line with the desires of his Cabinet colleagues.
Maybe he was generally incompetent.
Whatever, it shouldn’t have taken RD to wake NS up from her concentration on Covid/Indy (delete according to prejudice).
Posted 4 years ago # -
Andy Wightman...
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18955091.andy-wightman-quits-censorious-scottish-greens-transgender-row/Posted 4 years ago # -
Without Andy Wightman as a candidate, I'm honestly not sure who I'll vote for in 2021. Alison Johnstone is nice enough, but I'm increasingly turning away from my former party, even though I was a member for ten years. Maybe I won't bother to vote at all. Quite disillusioned with party politics at the moment.
Posted 4 years ago # -
“Quite disillusioned with party politics at the moment“
Well yes
Once upon a time, in SP elections there were LOTS of parties to choose from.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Andrew Neil chats with Andrew Wilson about monetary policy and joining the EU after Indy:
Posted 4 years ago # -
@baldycyclist, you are not selling that one
Posted 4 years ago #
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