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  1. ejstubbs
    Member

    By "capable of taking greener electric trains" I assume the author means routes which are equipped with overhead line equipment (OHLE) - although the wording could be read to suggest that the currently non-electrified routes themselves are incapable of being upgraded.

    Installing OHLE is expensive, and we all know that budgets are under pressure everywhere (even for the A9 dualling). Recall also that down in in Englandshire the government cut short the electrification of the Great Western main line because...it was getting too expensive. This stuff costs money to get done, and certain factions want what money there is spent elsewhere (eg A9 dualling again).

    (As a side note, battery electric trains are becoming a "thing", meaning that in the future OHLE may not be required for all routes to be "green".)

    As for comparing the current situation against the period when Abellio was running the Scotrail franchise, that's an irrelevance because Abellio wouldn't have invested in new OHLE anyway. Their job was to run trains, not to maintain and upgrade the infrastructure. That's basically Network Rail's job, with funding from Transport Scotland eg EGIP which despite the inevitable increases over the original estimates did AFAICT eventually came in under £1billion (cf A9 dualling again). There have also been openings of new lines eg Borders Rail, Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine, and Levenmouth (none of which, unfortunately, were delivered as electric railways*) and the Glasgow-Kilbride electrification project is happening right now.

    I don't know whether the business cases for electrification of existing routes, and building new routes electrified from day one, takes into account governmental net zero policy commitments, but if they aren't then they damn well should.

    * It might seem difficult to justify building an electrified branch line when you want to provide through services from a non-electrified main line. But there are such things are bi-mode trains (see the Great Western main line again, and LNER Class 800 services north of Edinburgh, amongst others)...

    Posted 1 month ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. gembo
    Member

    Shouldn’t Civil Engineers be doing structural surveys with accurate costings rather than pie in the sky questionnaires?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  5. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Feasibility studies with their time-bound nature are a great way for consultants to stay rich and for local authorities and government bodies to give the illusion of support and progress while concentrating on other things.

    Maybe I'm just getting old/cynical/bored, but the South Sub (even before it was a circle line c/o Niddrie West Jct) is only where it is because at that time, it was the equivalent of the city bypass. It didn't need to go any further south because there wasn't any city to serve; it couldn't easily go any further south because hills were in the way (Craiglockhart, Blackford, Liberton, Craigmillar) and two big estates were in the way (Inch and Niddrie); and it was more easily built where it is because it substantially follows the Jordan Burn and some of the Pow Burn. So we feel compelled to use it because the permanent way is already there, not because it's necessarily the best route for connecting population centres with trip generators in the 21st century. Using the South Sub should be a fast east-west option to take advantage of the speed of trams, not filling up the whole route with lots of stops.

    I still think that getting the trams out to the RIE and Shawfair is the best way to hook up people with big sites and other transport centres like the Borders railway.

    My pie in the sky idea is tram-trains running from Haymarket via the South Sub to Cameron Toll and then tunnelling straight to the RIE, Danderhall and Shawfair station. That south-east wedge inside the bypass is going to fill up with houses.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    “not because it's necessarily the best route for connecting population centres with trip generators in the 21st century”

    Well depends on so many things. Most developments seem to rely on ‘someone else sorting the access/transport’ - default being existing road network with (maybe) new roundabouts/motorway junctions.

    Things like the Borders Line reopening (wasn’t quite as ‘simple’ as running trains on existing tracks) came about because of lots of campaigning and ‘politics’.

    Of course ‘it’s more popular than we expected’ - so ‘growth’ inhibited by decisions for most of it to be single track. So (perhaps) little scope for trains from Borders & MidL to WestL and beyond - avoiding Waverley.

    Before anything happens with South Sub, SG (and others) might have to get serious about car mileage reduction, MUCH better integration of all forms of transport.

    Etc.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    Transport campaigners have urged the government to cap walk-up rail fares after research showed almost half of British travellers avoid travelling by train because of the cost.

    The Campaign for Better Transport (CBT) said 44% of survey respondents said train travel was too expensive, exceeding the proportion who said they found driving more convenient.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/feb/02/cap-on-the-day-intercity-rail-fares-urge-uk-campaigners

    Posted 1 month ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    The UK Department for Transport has committed up to £5m towards the project with that sum matched by the Scottish government.

    The funding had previously been agreed through the Borderlands Growth Deal but the new UK Labour government wanted to carry out a spending review before releasing its share.

    It paves the way to appoint a project manager to assess the "benefits and challenges" of extending the line beyond Tweedbank and on to Carlisle.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c05mlp43gnqo

    Posted 1 month ago #
  9. Morningsider
    Member

    £10 million for an initial feasibility study for a line that will never be built - or to put it another way, 50% of the cost of building Winchburgh station. Which would take thousands of cars off our most congested our roads.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    ScotRail to introduce longer trains on West Highland Line

    The use of active travel carriages had previously been restricted on services due to platform length limitations.

    https://12ft.io/https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24994543.scotrail-introduce-longer-trains-west-highland-line/

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  11. neddie
    Member

    I can't help thinking that any Borders rail extension to Carlisle is going the "wrong way".

    Why has no one thought of a rail line like this? It would connect up so many population centres, as well as the East Coast Mainline, West Coast Mainline and the existing Borders Rail:

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  12. ejstubbs
    Member

    What you have drawn there is a combination of:

    1) The Symington, Biggar and Broughton Railway, opened in 1861, taken over by the Caledonian Railway in 1861 and extended to Peebles in 1864. The line closed to passenger traffic in 1950.
    2) The Galashiels, Innerleithen and Peebles Railway, built by the North British Railway and opened in 1864. Connecting with the Peebles Railway from Edinburgh, this provided an alternative through route between Edinburgh and Galashiels. The line closed between Hawthornden Junction and Galashiels in 1962. The track bed is now used by the Peebles-Innerleithen cycle path.*
    3) Selkirk was the terminus of the North British so there was no route beyond Hawick from there. Likewise, Jedburgh was the terminus of the North British [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedburgh_Railway]Jedburgh Railway from Roxburgh. However, the North British Kelso Line from St Boswell's, opened in 1850, did connect Galasheils to Kelso via Roxburgh, and the North Eastern Railway Kelso Branch from Tweedmouth on the East Coast Main Line joined up with it there in 1851. Both lines were closed to passengers in 1964.

    Bottom line: apart from through connections via Selkirk and Jedburgh, your route from the West Coast Main Line to the East Coast Main Line through the borders almost existed** for passenger traffic - and there were certainly rails all the way - until the Caledonian Railway part from Symington to Peebles closed in 1950.

    * I can't see it being a popular idea to replace the cycle path with a railway. Shades of the Roseburn Path/trams saga...

    ** There was a rail connection between the Caledonian Railway station south of the Tweed, and the North British line on the other side. You can still see the abutments for the viaduct that carried the single track across the river. The connection was originally supposed to be a triangular junction, but the North British somehow contrived to limit it to being a north-facing (i.e. Edinburgh direction) junction which crossed several lines within their goods yard (as a result of which latter it may never have been approved for passenger traffic - and it wouldn't have helped the Caley much if it had been). Oddly, when the Caley line closed, its goods yard remained open, with freight wagons being transferred across the viaduct from the North British yard. Also, when the North British engine shed closed, locomotives requiring to be turned were sent across the viaduct to use the turntable at the Caley station.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

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    Posted 1 week ago #
  14. neddie
    Member

    If only it were easy to get a bike on Eurostar...

    Posted 1 week ago #
  15. Arellcat
    Moderator

    https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/a-railway-fit-for-britains-future

    The PDF is 52 pages long and there are 20 questions. If campaigning for infra and bikes on trains is your thing, this probably isn't the consultation you're looking for, even if quality and accessibility are two of the six primary objectives of the 'vision'.

    Note the subtle differences between the proposals for rUK-Wales and rUK-Scotland.

    We are seeking views on new policies to be included in the forthcoming Railways Bill, which will enable the establishment of Great British Railways (GBR). GBR will be a single directing mind that will run our rail infrastructure and passenger services in the public interest.

    The overall aim of these proposed reforms is to provide a railway that works better for both passengers and taxpayers across Great Britain. They also include:

    • the establishment of a new passenger watchdog
    • reform of fares and online retail of tickets
    • a new statutory role for devolved leaders in governing, managing, planning and developing the rail network
    • streamlining processes and reducing regulatory burdens to empower GBR to to deliver the best service for railway users
    • ensuring the private sector continues to play a key role, including a statutory duty for GBR to promote rail freight

    Posted 1 week ago #
  16. LaidBack
    Member

    @Arellcat - not sure how GBR would be done with already nationalised ScotRail. Always room for more logos!

    This caught my eye.

    English devolution is central to the government’s mission to kickstart economic growth and tackle regional inequality. The government has set out its approach in England in the English Devolution White Paper, which will precede the English Devolution Bill.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Heidi Alexander, the transport secretary, has suggested that renationalising train companies will not necessarily bring cheaper rail fares for passengers but should reduce train cancellations and delays.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/mar/24/thousands-of-jobs-could-go-as-part-of-uk-government-rail-shake-up

    Posted 4 days ago #
  18. Tulyar
    Member

    Sadly the government is ignoring the basic funding model used throughout C19th to build and operate railways, and housing (with shops & employment operations as an holistic project)

    Henry George is the man (NOT Adam Smith!). By building a railway, the land values are uplifted, a similar detail was part of the British Waterways Report No 44, that showed house prices got a 50% uplift when the properties were close to good quality open water, compared to being in the town. A 1988 survey for the Burke-Gilman trail in Seattle WA, showed that the Trail was listed as a feature, for many property sales & the value uplifts could be quantified. As yet I'm not aware of such studies in Edinburgh/Scotland but even a basic literature search should reveal some core data

    I've identified several Scotrail stations with substantial 'boardings' figures that could really use better station facilities, and with the many principals (Iceland, Lidl, Aldi, Asda, Sainsbury, Tesco, One-O-One ...) all looking to spend £1m to £2m on a new store, we really need to kick a few of those narrow focused silos (& the suppressive inertia of Network Rail that stalls so much potential development (& added revenues) to deliver a better railway (the long needed Almond Chord, part of the EGIP plan for which land is secured, with plans drawn up, could be funded by a joint partnership for the housing developments & EDI plus freight logistics hubs, at Winchburgh (with Kirkliston, a new station) at Turnhouse (housing/air freight hub, EDI long stay parking & new station, rail & road logistics hub). Unlike HS2 all the land & plans are in placce BEFORE charging on with construction!

    When I was working for BR Board, I was being woo'd by the Electrification Department, who used any spare staff time to go out & survey any routine work being done, so that they could include provision of space to come back later & install OHLE when the green light was given to electrify a line

    In Glasgow we have 2 local Scotrail stations, both with over 1.8 million boardings per year (neither of these has a car park but both have serious access issues on security & safety using narrow stairs & alleys!). I really need to tackle Ms Hyslop, Liam Sumpter (Network Rail), & Joanne McGuire (Scotrail) on this issue.

    My PM welcomes any opportunity to make this case based on 40 years of doing things like this.

    Posted 11 hours ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    @ Tulyar

    Too sensible of course

    Too many silos/vested interests

    Too many politicians relying on poor/cautious advice

    Etc

    Posted 10 hours ago #
  20. LaidBack
    Member

    @Tulyar @chdot
    The land value topic also came up at breakfast coffee (as well as Dalmahoy junction).

    Andy Wightman reckons that the increased value of developments close to stations and trams could have paid for many developments. Instead private developers harvest the increased profits on these well connected locations paid for by the public purse.

    Posted 3 hours ago #

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