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  1. Morningsider
    Member

    I would argue it is shambolic. Five rather randomly timed intercity services calling at Reston, effectively a commuter station for Edinburgh, does not provide the level of service required to get anyone out of their car.

    The rather optimistic feasibility study predicts just eight new rail commuters will use the station, with annual station usage of 61,000 boardings and alightings. This is based on a service frequency that matches that at Berwick-upon-Tweed, which has over 20 Edinburgh bound services a day. In practice, almost no-one will use this station if it is just served by TransPennine Express services.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. jonty
    Member

    Right - so your concern is service frequency, not what paint the trains have on them. Fair enough, agreed, though my preferred solution would definitely be more calls from intercity services rather than extending the stopping Dunbar services. Getting from Dunbar to Edinburgh on stoppers takes about half an hour, whereas getting from Berwick-upon-Tweed to Edinburgh on an intercity takes only ten minutes more. I think the latter travel speed is more likely to attract commuters etc. Hopefully they can time the services which do stop well.

    Perhaps having English local services to Berwick-upon-Tweed to "overshoot" and terminate at Reston instead might offer a more appropriate boost to service? I would assume more Reston folk commute/have current cause to travel south than north?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. chdot
    Admin

    Through a mountain pass, Poles frantically rebuild a rail link to Ukraine to help refugees

    BRZEGI DOLNE, Poland — The tracks were first laid by the Austro-Hungarian empire a century and a half ago, linking Vienna with Lviv. But disuse and the grinding gears of time forced them out of service 12 years ago.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/03/poland-train-ukraine-refugees/

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    A drainage system wrongly built by Carillion and unchecked by Network Rail led to the Stonehaven train crash, investigators have found, when a Scotrail train hit debris washed by rain on to the railway track.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/10/wrongly-built-drainage-system-led-to-stonehaven-train-crash-investigators-find

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. Morningsider
    Member

    A tragedy caused by a contractor cutting corners on site, with no inspection or follow-up by a public authority to identify the defects. Pretty much the story of the UK over the last 30 years.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. steveo
    Member

    The train drivers’ union Aslef called for moves to start immediately to take the HST train type out of service.

    If only someone had the same knee jerk reaction every time there was a fatality in a car, the roads would be devoid of any type of traffic.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    The UK Department for Transport’s Rail Accident Investigation Branch’s (RAIB) final report into the crash near Stonehaven in Aberdeenshire, in which three people were killed, said it was “more likely than not that the outcome would have been better if the train had been compliant with modern crashworthiness standards”.

    Investigators said they did not regards the trains to be unsafe, but their report made seven recommendations for safety improvements, including stronger “lifeguard” [metal brackets] to better protect the wheels from obstacles, safer window glass, and replacing batteries in carriages that were less likely to catch fire.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/anas-sarwar-demands-scrapping-of-old-scotrail-trains-after-fatal-carmont-crash-3605788

    Clearly any crash anywhere with fatal (or lesser) consequences is a tragedy.

    In ‘an ideal world’ 125s should be replaced (‘just like that’…), but considering the number of miles they (all) have covered, they are above averagely ‘safe’.

    The ScotRail ones travel a lot slower than their design speed - as seen on the way to King’s Cross etc.

    Ms Sturgeon said the trains were “fully compliant with legal requirements to operate”.

    Steveo said -

    “If only someone had the same knee jerk reaction every time there was a fatality in a car, the roads would be devoid of any type of traffic.“

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "On the whole they are extremely reliable and they have been modernised over the time as well. Lots of things have changed over the 40-odd years they have been in service.
    "It's a shame really but technology moves on so they have to make way for new trains."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-57069437.amp

    There have also been four serious incidents involving Class 43s; these accidents resulted in four power cars being written off.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_43_(HST)

    2 SPADs

    1 car on level crossing

    And Stonehaven - stuff on track due to drainage work not being done as specified.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

  11. chdot
    Admin

    There's nothing to replace them (and the other relevant fleets) with. Careful what you wish for and all that...

    https://twitter.com/andyroden1/status/1501987329929584650

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. ejstubbs
    Member

    There has been an awful lot of frothing on various rail forums about the RAIB report, the vast majority of which has been about the HST, while much less seems been about the primary cause of the derailment i.e. failure to ensure that the drainage works had been carried out to specification, and the contributory factors - procedures and operational decisions which, in hindsight, could have been better and could be improved. Reducing the likelihood of an accident occurring in the first place - something which the railways in the UK have historically been good at - makes marginal improvements in train crashworthiness a low priority. Unfortunately "shiny new trains" seems an easier concept for people to grasp than "fewer crashes".

    The attitude is not dissimilar to roads, in some ways: it's easier for people to buy ever heavier and more "crashworthy" cars - though arguably less effective in terms of reducing overall casualty rates - than it is for them to improve their own driving behaviour (or for LAs and highway authorities to improve infrastructure). There's a similarity in the underlying thinking as well: a common justification for enhanced car crashworthiness is that it provides protection against "the other driver" i.e. against factors over which you feel (rightly or wrongly) that you have no control - almost like a victim mentality. The same subconscious reasoning - that there's nothing I can do to stop the train I'm on crashing, but at least I'm more likely to survive if it does - a could easily be behind the calls the replace the HSTs.

    There may be an interesting comparison to air travel: leaving aside flawed aircraft designs, most people do seem willing to accept that the operating and maintenance procedures for commercial aircraft, and the supporting infrastructure (ATC and so forth) are sufficient to minimise concerns about aircraft crashworthiness. And to be fair the statistics would seem to bear that out. As they probably would do for railways as well, if certain people could be persuaded to stop banging on about "fifty-year old trains".

    As for what could replace the HSTs: in the absence of electrification of the "seven cities" network, other 125mph-capable diesel trains certainly exist e.g. Voyagers. That said, I'm not even sure that there is much if any mileage on that network on which 125mph running is permitted, which would open up the choice to include 100mph capable DMUs as well. Buying new would be expensive and likely very difficult to justify vs the costs of improving the primary and contributory causes of the Stonehaven crash. Suitable trains might be obtained more economically by cascading stock from other operators (which is how the HSTs were obtained in the first place, albeit heavily refurbished before going in to ScotRail service) but that probably wouldn't satisfy some of those who love to whinge about "having to put up with others regions' cast-offs".

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. Morningsider
    Member

    None of the lines which are used by 7-Cities HSTs have a line speed over 105mph (see Network Rail maps). Transport Scotland's rail services decarbonisation action plan, shows that the lines linking the central belt with Inverness and Aberdeen will be electrified by 2035.

    So - what can the Scottish Government actually do, given they will need a new fleet of electric trains within a decade or so? No point procuring new diesel trains, as they have a life of 30-40 years. There aren't any spare diesel trains just lying about, the old turbostars that were used on this service are being used in England. It would seem daft to procure new bi-mode trains, only to use them in full diesel mode for around 10+ years.

    Might it be possible to use old ex-east coast mainline mark IV coaches with a diesel loco? Not sure if that would work, or actually be any "safer". Reckon we could see HSTs around for a while yet.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. steveo
    Member

    The only marginally comparable incident I can think off is the Pendelino derailment a few years ago where only one person was killed. I'm not sure where Alsef reckon the various governments have been hiding a fleet of small diesel pendelinos. Until then I'll take HST over a voyager or almost any other DMU for long distance* travel.

    *I say distance most of the time its not that far just takes a long time.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    “Might it be possible to use old ex-east coast mainline mark IV coaches with a diesel loco?”

    Presume easy enough to use current HST coaches with locos.

    IF there are locos going spare…

    (Would probably depend on how freight services are going - at a time when freight on rail should be increasing significantly.)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. steveo
    Member

    I figured they used two HST power cars despite the tiny number of passenger carriages because running locos/power cars round to the front of the train is time consuming and impractical in busy stations.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. ejstubbs
    Member

    And if you're going to use a single HST power car it would need to be turned as well so it's pointing the right way. Back to the days of steam! Otherwise, as chdot says, you'd need to source more conventional cab-at-each-end diesel locos which are compatible with the HST MkIII coaches (in terms of coupling, braking system, coach heating system etc).

    Having two HST power cars on a short train makes for a pretty sprightly performer, in particular for getting up to line speed from stations. There are six intermediate stops between Perth and Inverness, for example; a swift getaway from each helps to keep the overall journey time down. Two power cars also provides a useful level of redundancy if you're running trains in somewhat out-of-the-way locations like on the Highland Main Line. A conventional DMU has multiple under-floor engines as well, of course, but that would be moving away from loco-hauled services towards an alternative which most passengers tend not to prefer.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    In short, seems unlikely that HSTs will disappear soon.

    To a large extent concern is (reasonably) about drivers.

    Presume there is no chance of seatbelts, even less airbags(?)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. steveo
    Member

    Presume these drivers don't just beam down to the depot, seems to me the better placed concern for the driver would be how they actually get to work in the first place, I expect thats a far more dangerous proposition than driving a train.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. ejstubbs
    Member

    @chdot: Presume there is no chance of seatbelts, even less airbags(?)

    This question has also been discussed on the rail forums (I think it may have been mentioned in the RAIB report - I haven't read it in full). One argument put forward against seatbelts is that drivers like to have the option of escaping the cab (either towards the engine room if driving a locomotive, or into the passenger accommodation if driving a multiple unit) when they know that a crash is unavoidable - usually when an obstruction is visible e.g. a vehicle on a level crossing that shouldn't be there, and the driver knows that even with the brakes full on the train isn't going to stop in time. It is apparently quite a common procedure in such circumstances. It seems clear that in the Stonehaven accident the driver didn't have sufficient advance warning of what was going to happen to begin exiting the cab. On top of that, the cab section became totally detached from the rest of the power car as a result of the collision, and it's questionable whether being strapped in to an unguided 100mph+ missile is ever going to be reliably survivable (and I believe the RAIB report does say pretty much that).

    A perceived difficulty with airbags is that most engine/train cabs are quite roomy - certainly cf most motor vehicles - and it would be difficult to design airbags that would work effectively in such a space. They would probably require the occupant to be strapped in to be at all effective, which takes us back to the objections against seat belts. One driver said he'd expect that by the time he knew that the airbags were likely to deploy, he'd already be out of his seat and heading out of the cab.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    Thanks

    Yes

    All makes sense.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

  23. chdot
    Admin

    None of which satisfies Whitelegg. Transport spending per head, he says, citing a 2018 report, is £944 per head per year in London, compared with £314 in the West Midlands. It would be much better to invest in local integrated networks of buses and cycling of a kind that he has worked on in Germany and elsewhere that benefit “more people more immediately at lower cost”. He argues that there is a remarkable lack of evidence for the Elizabeth line’s alleged environmental benefits.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/13/elizabeth-line-crossrail-opening-london

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    Routes expected to be among the first benefit include the Borders Railway between Edinburgh and Tweedbank, the Fife Circle and Glasgow-East Kilbride.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/battery-and-hydrogen-trains-for-scotrail-could-make-scotland-a-global-leader-3608481

    No doubt ‘to maximise passenger numbers, minimal space for bikes’…

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. boothym
    Member

    It would seem daft to procure new bi-mode trains, only to use them in full diesel mode for around 10+ years.

    Might it be possible to use old ex-east coast mainline mark IV coaches with a diesel loco? Not sure if that would work, or actually be any "safer". Reckon we could see HSTs around for a while yet.

    To avoid that issue it would be better to have a bi-mode power car or a power pack vehicle (the Class 755 has one in the middle) that can be replaced once the network is electrified. It might end up having a battery instead of a diesel engine, which could be recharged at certain bits of the network and then used where there's no overhead wires.

    Before the HSTs came up here I'm sure I read somewhere that the Mark IV carriages were incompatible with the HST power cars, in terms of the electrical system etc. which is why they've not run together before.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Before the HSTs came up here I'm sure I read somewhere that the Mark IV carriages were incompatible with the HST power cars, in terms of the electrical system etc. which is why they've not run together before.

    Yes. The electric train heating system on the Mk3 coach was different from the Mk4.

    The Class 91s were first tested using a rake of Mk3a sleeper coaches plus the HST on the other end. Later, they put a Class 91 on one end and a HST on the other, with Mk3 coaches and some cable jiggery pokery with the coach immediately behind the 91 power car.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

  28. chdot
    Admin

  29. chdot
    Admin

    Kids go free this weekend!

    To mark @ScotRail becoming a public railway, we're welcoming children aged 5-15 on board all services at no extra cost, Saturday 2 and Sunday 3 April.

    Access your free travel voucher http://bit.ly/35kruMC

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. acsimpson
    Member

    That sounds good but are the kids tickets not only £1 anyway?

    Posted 2 years ago #

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