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(590 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from Morningsider

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  1. MediumDave
    Member

    Travelled out on Friday with bikes to Bridge of Alan. All fine, no warning of anything coming.

    Emergency timetable introduced on Saturday. Most of the trains back on Sunday cancelled. Including the one we were planning to take which was cancelled while we were en route to Bridge of Allan, after checking it was running before leaving. Grr

    Took 3 hours to get home, including emergency dinner chez Pizza Hut in Stirling :eyeroll:

    The apparent cause is a work-to-rule by drivers meaning Scotrail can't fill the rosters. Sunday trains were nice while the lasted I guess. Train more drivers, Scotrail!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. MediumDave
    Member

    Oh yes, the train we got was only 3 carriages, despite the previous one being 3 hours earlier. At least 8 bikes and one wheelchair user. Thankfully the guard was understanding...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. MediumDave
    Member

    Bike rides were nice anyway. Many bluebells and Red Kites

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. steveo
    Member

    Long term, apart from the union, I can' see why trains need drivers.

    If we have self driving buses on the motorway surely the railway, a far more controlled environment, should more easily be converted. The DLR has been automated for years.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. steveo
    Member

    Its just occurred to me that I was planning to go away this weekend. But I'm not keen on getting stuck in Pitlochry with my bike waiting on a rescue from a family member. Every time I use, or plan to use, the train ScotRail makes it a total crap shoot if I'll get back.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. jonty
    Member

    > Long term, apart from the union, I can't see why trains need drivers.

    If you're volunteering to figure it out for them I'm sure they'd love to hear the secret.

    The DLR was purpose built from the ground up as a driverless railway and each train still requires a member of staff on board anyway. Driverless trains on the mainline are decades away.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. steveo
    Member

    Why? Why is the mainline more complicated than the main road? Computers can recognise signals and react faster than people so there would be no SPAR, they can read the line speed from the same systems that cars already use (or from GPS).

    As far as I can see the only reason its not been done already is because no govt has stumped up the cash and willing to do the necessary regulation, testing and fights with train drivers.

    Meanwhile in the wild west (the road networks) where the sheriffs unions are not so strong, testing on automated cars is there or there abouts in busy areas never mind an empty block with nothing going on by design.

    From a bit of reading, this is the best that an article could come up with.

    More relevant to mainline trains is the driver’s ability to sound an audible warning to announce the presence of the train – an essential safety function when staff are working on the line.

    Honking the horn... ffs
    https://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/are-driverless-trains-the-future

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. MediumDave
    Member

    The SG are so feart they didn't even push driver only operation through on the Stirling-Edinburgh line, despite the new trains and upgraded stations being capable.

    From some chat with the guard (while we wrestled multiple bikes out of the way of a wheelchair user) it appears the proximate cause of this Sunday's situation was reliance on overtime rather than training enough drivers to fill roster hours. As such it's likely a lot quicker to train a bunch more drivers than upgrade all the infrastructure necessary to allow full automation. Plus the government (and former franchisees) are idiots for putting so much power in the hands of drivers.

    Longer term, full automation would be good (mainly for efficiency reasons), though staff capable of operating the train would still be needed for when things inevitably go wrong so it's not clear how much manpower one could actually save. I believe the self-driving buses will all have "drivers" on board for this (and regulatory) reasons.

    Alas, neither automation or training more drivers is likely to happen quick enough to save your trip next Sunday :(

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    “and each train still requires a member of staff on board anyway”

    Is that actually true?

    (If so, I wasn’t aware.)

    Some interesting facts/opinions here -

    https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/docklands-light-railway-dlr-drivers-16597954.amp

    Automation is a fact of life - and has been for hundreds of years.

    The reasons include efficiency (which may or may not work out as intended). Safety - it would be nice to think that individual humans are less expendable than they once were… Money making more/better return on investment.

    Also ‘lack of people willing to do jobs’, which is a mixture of conditions, pay, people allowed to have the right bit of paper, etc.

    ScotRail still hasn’t got enough drivers to run a full service without overtime. The continuing effects of Covid isn’t helping. (Not just SR, today’s news - again - ‘long queues at airports’).

    Whether automated trains doing 125mph is a good idea, necessary just because ‘we can’t get the staff’ or just ‘progress’, I don’t know!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. steveo
    Member

    The SG are so feart they didn't even push driver only operation through on the Stirling-Edinburgh line

    I suppose that was always the one benefit from the privatisation the govt could legitimatly brush their hands and say its a labour dispute between a private company and its staff. Now its going to be a politicised fight to get anything done.

    I believe the self-driving buses will all have "drivers" on board for this (and regulatory) reasons.

    So I understand. I doubt that will last though, either something catastrophic will happen and self driving will be nixed for a decade or it will be fine and the driver will get on at the stop before the bus enters town.

    DLR are specifically not train drivers presumably to save on salary.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. steveo
    Member

    Thing is the pay is good. I'm nearly tempted myself! I can understand training being an issue especially over the last few years but this has been going on for a decade!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. jonty
    Member

    > As far as I can see the only reason its not been done already is because no govt has stumped up the cash and willing to do the necessary regulation, testing and fights with train drivers.

    In other words, it's simply not worth it. The railways of the world could invest billions in enhancing and maintaining their railway lines to deliver a better service to passengers, or could spend the same money automating every inch of their lines - almost certainly at an overall loss - so they don't have to give quite as much money to a particular section of the labour force out of spite. They universally choose the former.

    Worth noting that the majority of delays - and cost overruns - to Crossrail have been due to attempting to integrate systems of automated train running into the mainline network to maximise capacity in the underground section. The government will invest in this stuff if the benefit justifies it. However, the central Crossrail section is about 13 miles long - less than 0.1% of the Scottish network. They still haven't fully managed it - no trains will run all the way through yet. And it still has human drivers!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. steveo
    Member

    Its hardly spite.

    Either much more money needs to be spend on driver training so drivers aren't working tired with the apparent amount of over time they're working or something more modern needs to be done.

    I'm sure commuters would also appreciate not being held to ransom ever time a pay dispute comes up. Its only Sundays this week but just wait while it escalates.

    There are dozens of operating automated rail services the fact that the UK can't build a massive infrastructure project on time or on budget is hardly news.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_train_systems

    Interestingly Thameslink is largely automated because the computer can better control acceleration and breaking and fit even more services in a block. So it can and has been done.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. jonty
    Member

    Yes - the Thameslink project has an ATO section to get 24 trains per hour under London. Less than 10 automated route miles in enclosed tunnels, cost £6bn in noughties money and like Crossrail, there are still drivers in seats.

    What does a train with no staff on it do when it encounters a rockfall signal at danger through the Pass of Brander? How does it deal with a report of a cow on the line at Polmont? Are customers willing to tolerate complete service breakdowns when minor things like this happen just to avoid disruption on certain Sundays during a once-in-a century pandemic-induced labour crisis? Are they willing to pay at least £100bn for the privilege?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. Arellcat
    Moderator

    DLR are specifically not train drivers presumably to save on salary.

    The DLR was originally to be either an extension of the Underground or a dedicated light rail/tram system. The latter became the only solution because of imposed budget constraints by the Government. I have long wondered if the automated aspect was to save on driver costs as part of that directive, and if that was itself made feasible because of the extent of elevated track using older formations that would reduce incursion from the public (and trees/animals).

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    “Thing is the pay is good.”

    In current/recent labour market that’s probably true.

    Not regular ‘office hours’ though.

    Probably less than most airline pilots - a lot of whose job is automated.

    Any plans for pilotless passenger planes?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. steveo
    Member

    What does a train with no staff on it do when it encounters a rockfall signal at danger through the Pass of Brander

    Same thing the driver does. Stop the bloody train...

    A few years ago I was on the train back from Glasgow when some idiot parked his truck on the line just after Bathgate. The train in front of mine hit it and a light went on in every cab in the country to stop, whether they were just about to hit a derailed train or half way across the rail bridge. Half an hour or so later once it was clear what was happening trains on unaffected lines were allowed to proceed. The drivers weren't consulted they were told it was safe or it wasn't.

    Tell me why a light telling a human to stop is safer than a computer instruction? If that warning wasn't received the human driver would have ran at 100 mph into the train in front the driver would not have seen it before it was too late. An automated system using lidar would have seen the obstacle in the dark long before a monkey brain could work out what that light was.

    Humans in seats are there for the same reason the whole line isn't automatic, as soon as someone even suggests a change to the drivers pay and conditions they go on strike. Scotland could probably manage without what passes for a railway service for the few years required to automate but the South East of England could not. Once in a century this issue may be but something sets off the unions enough that scotrail work to rule regularly and drivers down south love to flex that particular threat since there commuters rarely can just drive.

    A driven railway is going to be an anachronism in less than a decade. The country is paying for crossrail with virtually no Chance of benefitting from it, if someone came out with a plan to benefit the whole country they'd be more likely to support it than crossrail. But that is life, you don't get to pick what projects you pay for. Just as well really.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    Not regular ‘office hours’ though

    I work in an office and rarely keep regular office hours. Never mind folk working gig economy on 0 hours contracts for less than half the money.

    The payrise is as fair as anyone's at the moment but the people who really need the payrise don't have a union with the kind of power train drivers do. Personally I'm conflicted between the race to the bottom which has lead us to 0 hours contracts and unions just taking the mick because they can. I wonder if we'd be having this discussion if Labour had won the last Scottish election.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. jonty
    Member

    > Humans in seats are there for the same reason the whole line isn't automatic, as soon as someone even suggests a change to the drivers pay and conditions they go on strike. Scotland could probably manage without what passes for a railway service but the South East of England could not. Once in a century my arse, scotrail work to rule regularly enough and drivers down south love to flex that particular threat.

    Train drivers in Scotland haven't been on strike in twenty years. I'm not going to continue this conversation about practical and engineering obstacles to driverless trains as it's abundantly clear all you care about is removing the ability for a particular organised labour to bargain for pay and terms at risk of inconvenience to yourself. You talk about avoiding a race to the bottom but isn't this exactly what you're arguing for - other people don't have good unions, so train drivers can't have one either?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. steveo
    Member

    Well since you've not actually shown any technical reason it's not much of a loss...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. jonty
    Member

    > Well since you've not actually shown any technical reason it's not much of a loss...

    *sigh*

    > Same thing the driver does. Stop the bloody train...

    Nope - they proceed at caution, using their eyes to check for danger. They may even get out of the cab to check or remove obstructions. The nature of the signalling system means that signals can sometimes be at danger for some time. So that's either the line is paralysed or an upgrade costing a lot of zeros for a quiet line which was chugging along at minimal cost just fine.

    > The drivers weren't consulted they were told it was safe or it wasn't.

    How did they know what had happened at the scene? Did the driver of the train involved, or another one nearby, tell them?

    Drivers proceed on their own judgement of safety. If they were told of a reason to proceed with caution - perhaps due to debris risk - they would be able to.

    > Tell me why a light telling a human to stop is safer than a computer instruction?

    It's not - which is why cab signalling is the norm for new high speed lines and an aim for the UK rail network over the next few decades. Estimated cost of an upgrade down south? 3.5m per mile.

    What do you do when the signalling system fails and a red light is shown - virtually or not - in the middle of nowhere? On normal trains this is quite routine and the driver is 'talked past' the signal, slowly travelling on line of sight until the next clear signal. Even the DLR cab staff take control of the train in situations like this. How does it work without trained driving staff on the train?

    What happens when there's failures/incidents/maintenance at junctions or stations where degraded working needs to be set up? Often this is managed with people on the ground using physical tokens or hand signalling. Do they need some sort of device to interface with the train? Do they just shut the line for days instead? Remember, even one extra day of disruption means more disruption than driver strikes have caused in Scotland in the last twenty years.

    How do busy stations work? Currently, trains are usually 'shunt' signalled 'on top' of each other either to use up platform space or to couple. This requires drivers to drive on line of sight. It happens every day dozens of times in Edinburgh alone. Do we need to develop some kind of proximity/camera system to make this work? Is the technology there yet to make this work reliably enough to avoid massively dangerous - and disruptive - crashes?

    How do depots work? Or engineering worksites? Do you upgrade them all to be 'automated' as well? How much does that cost? Do you have special local drivers to run the trains around? What if they go on strike?

    You seem pretty confident that you have a cheap and easy answer to all these questions. If so, don't bother replying here - swerve the train driver job, start a rail consulting firm and become a billionaire.

    If not, I'd suggest that building every train driver a brand new four bed house on the condition that they don't strike and accept involuntary overtime would end up a much quicker and cheaper solution to the strikes. It would probably miraculously solve the labour shortage too.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. steveo
    Member

    Thank you, very interesting.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    @jonty, you win the internet today. Bravo!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. jonty
    Member

    > Thank you, very interesting. Though a lot of that is handled by self driving cars already so I return to why is the mainline more complicated than the main road?

    Happy to concede this point to you in person while riding a self-driving cab down Princes Street. I'll pay.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    See if you'd just lead off with there are lots of fiddly little edge cases that no one wants to deal with because its easier to just keep throwing public money at the problem this conversation would have been much quicker. After all the public purse is bottomless and peoples patience with striking workers is endless.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    Probably the very best thing about living in London is sitting at the front of a driverless DLR train and pretending to be the driver.

    However, during the pandemic, Londoners have been deprived of that pleasure as the area was sealed off to ensure that the Passenger Service Agents could have a safe space to operate the doors, provide messages, and occasionally drive the trains.

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/passengers-can-drive-the-dlr-trains-again-48621/

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. Morningsider
    Member

    Yes, autonomous train operation (ATO) is very difficult - but not impossible. Full ATO is years away, but lower levels of automation can bring pretty significant capacity benefits - as it allows trains to run closer together at speed. The central section of the new Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) will use ATO. Luxembourg will have a basic level of ATO in a few years time on some lines:

    https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/3/increasing-luxemburgs-rail-capacity-automation

    More ambitious technology is under development:

    https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/4/alstom-takes-another-step-towards-autonomous-train-operation-netherlands

    Some of which will go live in the next few years:

    https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2020/5/world-first-automatic-train-operation-regional-passenger-trains-be

    Yes, I appreciate there is some technological boosterism amongst all this. However, in the next couple of decades, all UK rail lines and trains will have some form of in-cab signalling. It should be relatively straightforward to install ATO systems on top of that as the technology develops. If any industry should be alive to technology wiping out entire categories of job then it is the rail industry. Just ask ASLEF how may full-time Firemen they currently represent...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. jonty
    Member

    > See if you'd just lead off with there are lots of fiddly little edge cases that no one wants to deal with because its easier to just keep throwing public money at the problem this conversation would have been much quicker. After all the public purse is bottomless and peoples patience with striking workers is endless.

    In fairness, I did say it would be prohibitively expensive which is, in practice, equivalent.

    Even if a viable and widely applicable commercial self-driving technology is developed for the roads - to be clear, this does not exist now and I suspect won't for some time - the value proposition is completely different for the railways. If you get rid of the driver of a taxi conveying a single person, you have probably slashed the cost of that passenger's journey to maybe a fifth or a tenth of what it was. If you get rid of the driver of a train, the cost is spread over maybe many hundreds of passengers, and as a fraction of the overall running costs of the train it's even less significant.

    You also then have to consider the appetite for risk. Motoring kills thousands of people a year to little fanfare, whereas the rail system is basically designed to never kill anyone, ever. If a self driving car goes wrong, a pedestrian gets run over or a Tesla driver gets sent into a wall. If a self-driving train goes wrong, you could send an intercity express with 300 people in it flying through the Edinburgh Waverley concourse at rush hour. Is it worth the risk, and cost for the extremely marginal monetary gains?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    Of course having a driver is no ‘safety guarantee’.

    But extreme events like this shouldn’t have a disproportionate effect on decision making -

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorgate_tube_crash

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. jonty
    Member

    Interestingly, as the article notes, the Tube implemented safety interlocks to prevent that kind of accident happening again. Humans are good at dynamism and ingenuity while computers are good at rules - the combination is pretty hard to beat.

    Of course the LU must now be one of the heaviest users of 'self-driving trains' in the world. Still - despite the protestations of a former mayor - no concrete plans to get rid of drivers, though, as they're too useful for the fiddly bits and don't cost too much per passenger when some trains can take 1000 people.

    An interesting article on the topic: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/

    Posted 2 years ago #

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